Looking for a rule - No defense on robots without tubes

[Mr.G]

This is just another example of a rule made up by the head ref at GLR. I have been in this for 7 years and this is the forth year that I can remember that he has made up his own rules.

We all put a lot of work into this project and to waste an event to his rules changes is very disappointing. We have never had any problems at other events.

i'm sorry for complaining, but the refs made this rule, and said that would be strictly enforcing all the rules of the game, but then it seemed like they didn't. In our final seeding match, we were hit, causing us to drop our tube. The opposing robot then backed off, and rammed us again, before we sould even lower our arm to the ground. We tried talking to the refs about it, but they said they didn't see it happen. If they saw it, we would have won because we lost by only a few points, and the opposing alliance would have received some kind of penalty.

About it being a rule, it doesn't matter if its in the book, cause the refs are going to penalize you if you don't follow it, so we followed it regardless.

Edit:This was just the most striking example. I'm pretty sure that they hit us one or two other times when we had no tube, and i beleive that they hit one of our allies, but i'm not as sure about that, because i was more worried about our robot at the time.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by trilogism

i'm sorry for complaining, but the refs made this rule, and said that would be strictly enforcing all the rules of the game, but then it seemed like they didn't. In our final seeding match, we were hit, causing us to drop our tube. The opposing robot then backed off, and rammed us again, before we sould even lower our arm to the ground. We tried talking to the refs about it, but they said they didn't see it happen. If they saw it, we would have won because we lost by only a few points, and the opposing alliance would have received some kind of penalty.

Even if it was a rule, sometimes the refs miss a call. Having reffed at an off-season event, I can tell you (even with each ref assigned to small portions of the field), you can't always see everything, particularly when there are 3 or 4 robots in that area. I can only imagined how much worse it is with a giant rack on the field as opposed to the open 2006 field I reffed on. Refs are not omniscient, and shouldn't be expected to see everything. They can make mistakes too, just like refs in any other "sport".

[Kevin Sevcik]

Since it seems pretty unanimous that this was a misinterpretation of the rules, perhaps a GLR team could bring this up at a team forum in MI. Preferably in a positive way, such as suggesting a GDC or other official be available to clarify the basis of rulings, etc. If there was a good non-confrontational way to address issues like this, at any regional, I think it would be a very positive thing.

[Rich Ross]

Again, it seems like the best thing to do is to have a person at each regional whose job is to be judicial and make sure that all the right rules are being enforced, and that no "imaginary" rules are.

If I can't play real defense, then it can't be a real Midwest regional

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Rich Ross

Again, it seems like the best thing to do is to have a person at each regional whose job is to be judicial and make sure that all the right rules are being enforced, and that no "imaginary" rules are.

Isn't that what the head ref is supposed to be??

Heck, even Woodie himself changed the rules a few years ago at competition. In 2002 there was a very clear rule disallowing tape measures, and many teams had gone out of their way to find alternate ways of solving a problem where tape measures would have been perfect. Some teams ignored the rule, and Woodie liked their solution so he changed the rules at the event to allow them!

[Rich Ross]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

Isn't that what the head ref is supposed to be??

Heck, even Woodie himself changed the rules a few years ago at competition. In 2002 there was a very clear rule disallowing tape measures, and many teams had gone out of their way to find alternate ways of solving a problem where tape measures would have been perfect. Some teams ignored the rule, and Woodie liked their solution so he changed the rules at the event to allow them!

No, the head ref doesnt have that job. The head ref is executive. The GDC (or representative) is judicial. The ref SHOULD NOT make the rules, they should understand them and enforce. No more, no less.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Rich Ross

No, the head ref doesnt have that job. The head ref is executive. The GDC (or representative) is judicial. The ref SHOULD NOT make the rules, they should understand them and enforce. No more, no less.

I understand that's what they're supposed to do, but invariably there is an amount of interpretation and no matter "who" you put in this position they can still make the same mistakes. Why would having another layer in between the head ref and the GDC make things any better? This new person could just as easily make the same mistake. Most of the time something that you think is "the head ref making a new rule" is them thinking they are simply applying an existing rule. This problem of interpretation can occur no matter what title the person holds.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

I understand that's what they're supposed to do, but invariably there is an amount of interpretation and no matter "who" you put in this position they can still make the same mistakes. Why would having another layer in between the head ref and the GDC make things any better? This new person could just as easily make the same mistake. Most of the time something that you think is "the head ref making a new rule" is them thinking they are simply applying an existing rule. This problem of interpretation can occur no matter what title the person holds.

There already is another appeal layer between the refs and the GDC. That is the event FTA (I am one). The FTA should have an up to date rule book and a copy of the Q&A (all 150+ pages of it). If the FTA can't find a rule, they shouldn't be enforcing it. FTAs also have means to contact the highest levels of FIRST should the situation warrant it.

But believe me, I'd have to be pretty deep into something before I actually used that avenue. More likely I'd ask the Volunteer Coordinator for a new head ref...

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Rich Ross

If I can't play real defense, then it can't be a real Midwest regional

You're lucky this didn't happen at a New England competition, else you might have a second Boston Tea Party to deal with...

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

You're lucky this didn't happen at a New England competition, else you might have a second Boston Tea Party to deal with...

What would you toss into the harbor? The head ref?

Seriously, Chris is correct above: your event's FIRST Technical Advisor (FTA) is the on-site reference for all matters related to actions by key volunteers. These include the Head Referee, the Lead Robot Inspector, the Field Supervisor, the MC, the Game Announcer, the Lead Scorekeeper, the Lead Queuer, the Pit Administration Supervisor, and the Lead Safety Advisor.

Originally Posted by 2007 FTA Manual

Staffing of the Competitions is a joint effort between the Regional Planning Committees and FIRST headquarters. The Regional Planning Committees essentially plan, organize, and host the Competitions. A key member of the Committee Staff at each competition is
the Volunteer Coordinator, who recruits all of the Key volunteers for the Event.

So a problem with a key volunteer's actions should be dealt with by the Volunteer Coordinator (acting for the regional planning committee) with the advice of the FTA. And as Chris points out, in extreme cases FIRST headquarters staff or a GDC member can step in to provide resolution.

[kireitenshi00]

I'm definitely agreeing with most of this thread right now. The head ref should be enforcing the rules within the rule book, not making up his own. We had some trouble at the Pittsburgh regional, where the head ref suddenly changed his mind on a ruling between Friday and Saturday. As a result, our team had to change its entire strategy, and we ended up placing 15th rather than in the top 8 like we were supposed to.

[Jaime65]

I think that rule was unfair because as I recall there were many matches were robots was getting pushed and shoved without them having possession of a tube and there was no yellow or red card given to them and no penalty points I attended that Great Lakes Regional and I truly think this is unfair