Please stop complaining...

[burkechrs1]

I've never seen so much complaining about a FIRST game in the 4 years I've been a part of FIRST. It seems like everyone is finding "something" wrong with the game this year and complaining. Everywhere you look there's "This rule sucks" or "The randomizer sucks" or "There were no yellow cards called when they hit us..." To me it just sounds like a lot of sore losing. FIRST isn't about winning. And francly it really shouldn't matter if you played the same team 5 times in one regional. Yea, it could probabaly get annoying, but flaming FIRST on CD about how they have "made mistakes" is no way to solve problems. It's basically like going and talking smack about someone when they aren't there to defend themselves. I know everyone here doesn't intend to flame FIRST but that's what it's turning into. After every regional there is always a thread of what needs to be changed or what went wrong. Seriously, we should stop. It's to late to change rules now, so there is no use in complaining about them. IMO, if you lost a round because of a rule you dont agree on, then change your strategy and win the next match anyway. That's how you prove you have a good robot/team, not by complaining and trying to put someone to blame. So from now on I say we all stop flaming and pointing out what went wrong or what bad calls were made and start pointing out how much fun we all have at the regionals and what FIRST actually has done for us. Because it isn't that easy to put on a flawless event with no issues and I think FIRST deserves waaaaay more credit than we give them.

Just my .02.

[burkechrs1]

And I just want to add, it's fine to discuss a rule but once it turns into somethingmore than clarification and into something about how the rule shouldn't even exist then it's gone to far...

Hope everyone's having fun. See ya'll at SVR!

[jgannon]

There do seem to be more complaints this year than I'm used to, but it is important to keep in mind that while FIRST is a game, it is also a business, and we are its customers. When we find rules or occurances that are contrary to the deliverables of FIRST that we signed up and paid for, it is perfectly reasonable to complain. Getting crushed by the same team all day is not very inspirational. A sudden rule change that makes it substantially more difficult to finish your robot is not very inspirational. Leaving students feeling that they were not treated fairly or consistently is not very inspirational. There is certainly some sore loser syndrome around here from time to time, but there are also a lot of legitimate complaints. It is perfectly reasonable to complain when you understand what you paid for and you didn't get it.

[Andrew Blair]

Most of us were saying "this randomizer sucks" long before we actually competed.

When a team loses due to the dynamics of the game, they should not complain. When teams lose because of the failures of the game design, we should complain.

An excellent example: Banebot transmissions. I'm not sure if your team used them this year, but many teams did. Had teams not discussed the problem, there would be many, many teams with broken robots. And that wouldn't be very inspiring, eh?

If a soccer tourney hires a particular ref to oversee all games, and he happens to be colorblind and make terrible decisions, causing all blue shirted teams to lose, should you simply say "he tried his best, guess we should go home"? Nope, you figure out the problem and fix it.

I do not support negative criticism. But constructive criticism is necessary to ensure fairness to all teams.

[zander_108]

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

Most of us were saying "this randomizer sucks" long before we actually competed.

When a team loses due to the dynamics of the game, they should not complain. When teams lose because of the failures of the game design, we should complain.

An excellent example: Banebot transmissions. I'm not sure if your team used them this year, but many teams did. Had teams not discussed the problem, there would be many, many teams with broken robots. And that wouldn't be very inspiring, eh?

Well I very much agree with the problems that banebots has been causing teams. Our robot has been using the banebots 2-to-1 trannys and all they can do is give us headaches. They have broken 5 times, and The last one happened during the semi-finals of a match.. We broke out pits on the field, and in the end, were not able to compete any more. However, THANK YOU team voltage for subbing for us, giving us 2nd place.

[John Neun]

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

Most of us were saying "this randomizer sucks" long before we actually competed.

When a team loses due to the dynamics of the game, they should not complain. When teams lose because of the failures of the game design, we should complain.

An excellent example: Banebot transmissions. I'm not sure if your team used them this year, but many teams did. Had teams not discussed the problem, there would be many, many teams with broken robots. And that wouldn't be very inspiring, eh?

If a soccer tourney hires a particular ref to oversee all games, and he happens to be colorblind and make terrible decisions, causing all blue shirted teams to lose, should you simply say "he tried his best, guess we should go home"? Nope, you figure out the problem and fix it.

I do not support negative criticism. But constructive criticism is necessary to ensure fairness to all teams.

Very nicely said, Andy. We should not accept the unacceptable because we need to be "good sports." "Fair and professional" needs to be two-directional.

[cziggy343]

but wat are you complaining about? is it a rule that your team lost a match and now think it's dumb? or is it something that affects everyone and causes everyone problems? i did hear about the banebots thing, and i agree that something like that should be complained about, but if it's just a rule that a small group of people don't like, then leave it be. the "random match" thing was a mistake. get used to it, all humans make mistakes. dont jump on people's back for mistakes like that.

thats my $0.02

[burkechrs1]

That's what I mean. Constructive critism isn't complaining and the banebots issue needed to be brought up. Now it's when FIRST has addressed the issue and people continue to complain is when it gets outta hand. Bring up the issue and leave it at that. There is no more to be said once someone has brough it up.

And yes, I guess this was a thread complaining about people complaining =D

[cziggy343]

yeah, but i still think that there has been lots of complaining over nothing, or something that doesn't really matter, at least more so than most years. which was pretty much your point, so i agree with you.

[meaubry]

All,
I will not condone or not condone anyone that posts complaints, nor congrats, nor discussions, or anything.

I will condone allowing anyone that stays within our web forum rules, the right to write what they want to - again - as long as they do so with respect and within the rules.

It is okay to share your thoughts with others.

Sometimes people disagree and complain about stuff that others do not agree with, depending on the compliant it is reiterated at nauseum.
Sometimes the number of posts in agreement is an indication of something that needs to be addressed, during, or after the season is done.

That is okay - frankly, sometimes "things" do need to be discussed in order for change to occur.

So, it is okay to complain - just do so with care, and within the rules.

That is one of the benefits of forming a community of FIRST participants - everyone that wants is allowed to participate.

If the compliant has no merit - it usually gets ignored, and we all move on.

Mike Aubry
Chief Delphi

[technoL]

Originally Posted by cziggy343

yeah, but i still think that there has been lots of complaining over nothing, or something that doesn't really matter, at least more so than most years. which was pretty much your point, so i agree with you.

What you consider to be complaining over nothing or something that doesn't matter may be a very important issue to other teams. It is vital to look at the situation from all points of view before judging or at least publicly expressing your opinion.

[MariaChristineK]

We are only "complaining" because we love FRC so much! We want to make it the best we can and in doing so we must fix anything that we feel detracts from the value of FRC. I am sure that the majority of people you believe to be complaining are simply frustrated with the situation and are offering constructive criticism. However, I can understand that we are sometimes irksome.

[David Brinza]

You can call it complaining, criticism, or even just plain whining, but members of the FIRST community that have problems with how rules are written or interpreted, how poorly match schedules were arranged, or any other issue they may are providing feedback to the rest of the FIRST community. Sometimes the members that speak out in CD are saying the same thing that many others are thinking. Sometimes their perception of the issue is a bit misguided, but still they have the right to voice opinions. If they're opinions are way off-base, there are plenty of CD members who will try to set them straight.

I say that if a FIRST member believes that something is wrong, CD is the place to initiate discussion. If there's consensus among the CD community that something is broken in FIRST, there's a really good chance that it will get fixed. There are senior FIRST people scanning CD regularly. I think it's part of their "continuous improvement" process.

[Lil' Lavery]

There is a difference between criticism and whining.
Constructive criticism in a necessity. Debate is healthy. Revealing new and potential problems is an absolute must. Whining and flaming are not.
An example would be the Banebots issue. A few teams originally posted the problems they experienced with them, revealing the issue to the members of CD (good). Teams, Mentors, Banebots, and FIRST then began analyzing the issue and determining whether it could be a serious issue (good). They then began working towards a solution (perfect). Some offered criticism and complaints about FIRST and Banebots letting this happen, but mainly withing bounds of sanity (alright). Other then continued to complain, even starting new threads, about issues that were already revealed, and offered no new productive solutions to the issue (bad), even after it was announced that not only was FIRST aware of the issue, but that they were working on a solution. There is no use beating a dead horse, so please don't bother.

[David Brinza]

Right on the front page of Chief Delphi forums under the "Welcome to ChiefDelphi.com" heading are some important rules/guidelines for users of this forum. In particular, there's an imbedded link to the following announcement that new and/ or infrequent users really must read:

Read these threads first!

After you've read these, you'll understand why whining is not GP. If you have a problem/issue/question, read the game manual first, then search the CD forums. If there's nothing already posted, then create a new post. But remember, you are associating your team with your post. It's very easy to gripe about a problem, it's harder (but much better) to offer a solution...