Team Update 17

[Grant Cox]

Paul will be happy about this

[Tetraman]

Thank you FIRST for spelling it all out.
Thank you those who expressed the now solved problems to FIRST

[waialua359]

I'm glad they clarified/modified the ruling on bottom scoring. In a match that we had 4 in a row on the bottom, we lost because they said since one of the ringers were touching a ringer laying on the floor, it didn't count. It happened to be a keeper that just missed during autonomous.
We actually spent time during matches moving keepers, ringers away from the rack to ensure it was scored.
Now it doesn't matter!

Yay!!

[Rich Ross]

I hate to be the pessimist, and feel free to send me angry PM's about this not being GP, but ill say it: Actions speak louder than words.

I was told by update 16 that the algorithm was being fixed. Not fixed enough. 1504 played against a certain opponent 3 or so times. Not exactly good.

Inspection problems also occurred and those have not been addressed. They weren't a huge problem, but i'd like to see that fixed.

And thanks to everyone who helped to establish the consistency of refs. If it works.

Im hopeful, but im taking update 17 with a grain of salt.

[Mr.G]

This is the best update I have ever seen, but how is FIRST going to guarantee that the rules changes by the head ref isn't going to happen again. This isn't the first time it has happened and it was brought to FIRST's attention the last time. I don't want any team to go through this again, even though it helped us, I am sick over it.

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

This is the best update I have ever seen, but how is FIRST going to guarantee that the rules changes by the head ref isn't going to happen again. This isn't the first time it has happened and it was brought to FIRST's attention the last time. I don't want any team to go through this again even though it helped us, I am sick over it.

It's not guaranteed really, but I do hope and think FIRST has made some arrangements to specially communicate with referee's before regionals. It really is terrible to go through unfair calls. I am glad FIRST is humble enough to admit and show gracious professionalism is a two-way street.

[cziggy343]

Originally Posted by Bharat Nain

It's not guaranteed really, but I do hope and think FIRST has made some arrangements to specially communicate with referee's before regionals. It really is terrible to go through unfair calls. I am glad FIRST is humble enough to admit and show gracious professionalism is a two-way street.

yes, i agree. FIRST did a nice job here. after week one, most of the bugs are usually sorted out.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

This is the best update I have ever seen, but how is FIRST going to guarantee that the rules changes by the head ref isn't going to happen again. This isn't the first time it has happened and it was brought to FIRST's attention the last time. I don't want any team to go through this again, even though it helped us, I am sick over it.

Be careful what you wish. You could end up with an all rookie crew.

[Cody Carey]

Thank you FIRST and the GDC! This really addresses a lot of the negative situations teams have been put in, and eliminates quite a few as well.


...Thank you ...

[artdutra04]

Thank you, FIRST. Thank you!

We're all human, and we all make mistakes. The mark of greatness is not in one's ability to never make mistakes, but to recognize and rectify them as efficiently as possible. This is definitely an update that would make my grandmother proud.

On the whole, this has been a hard year on FIRST, with so many issues arising and everything. Sometimes it seems that people forget why they became involved in the program, and why they stay. People become so worked up in the details they fail to see the big picture. I was not immune to this, as I lost quite a bit of sleep during the build season due to the Banebots. But I'm still here today, and I can't wait to compete at UTC this week.

At this point in the season, people need to realize what is past is past. Things can't be changed now, so holding grudges over these issues will solve nothing. This Team Update clearly signifies that FIRST has realized how deep these issues go this year, and will work as hard as they possibly can to solve this problems. If anything, see this Team Update as the sight of a land bird by a sailing crew lost at sea. Things will get much better; very soon too.

Don't let your experiences from this build season become your last. If this is your rookie year, this is not a typical year. Things will get much better next year. If you are a returning veteran, don't jump ship because of a little stormy weather; c'mon, if you can design and build a robot from scratch in six weeks, then weathering out these issues should be a piece of cake.

We've already seen FIRST solve, or begin working extensively on, many of these issues. I expect by the time the Championships comes to pass, we will all have a much higher respect for FIRST and what they can accomplish. I know I most likely will, as it began today with this Team Update.

[Ryan Dognaux]

As I said in a previous post, FIRST is lisetening to our concerns and comments. The algorithm wasn't perfect for week 2, but it was better, and this update says that week 3 should be even better. Now there are more guidelines about the machine shops and they are addressing the issues with rule changes at events. While this entire situation is not ideal, it is better than nothing happening at all and I commend FIRST for their efforts.

[Mr.G]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Be careful what you wish. You could end up with an all rookie crew.

I don't care who I end up with. How would you like to be a team that didn't have much money or experience, so your team designed a great defensive robot? Then you got to the only event you could afford to go to and the rules are changed so that unless you had a tube in your possession you couldn't play defense any more. You go from a team that could have made it to the finals or a team that would have done well in eliminations to a team that no one would pick because all they were allowed to do was drive around. All that time and money was wasted for that one event. Disgusting.

FIRST designs the game so that everyone can be competitive no mater how good your robot is. This year you could be ramp bot, tube bot, defensive bot, or hybrid. Then a ref changes the rules and you no longer fit in 2 of the 3 main categories. To everyone watching you look like a lousy team, after all that hard work you know you put in. You know how good you could have been, but all you can do is drive around. This is not at all what FIRST is about, and this isn't the first time this has happened.

FIRST does a great job, better then any company I have worked for. I hope they will put more checks and balances in place so that it can't happen again.

Jack, I am not attacking you, just speaking my mind on this whole thing.

[Jack Jones]

Kevin,

I can understand and feel your pain. 1213 is cash poor too. Last year the Martians fronted us $4k to make the payment deadline and Gail Alpert (469) scrounged up enough to get us entry into a second regional. This year the state grant saved us and maybe shamed the Birmingham district into enough for Buckeye. Each year I go thousands of dollars out-of-pocket, not so much from benevolence, but from pride. I’m not about to have our team work that hard only to go onto that field and stink up the place.

But all of that is really beside the point. The fact that our fundraising sucks does not give us license to berate those we perceive to exacerbate our predicament. Especially when that person is not at the root of the problem.

Consider the job handed to the head referee. He has to decipher volumes of rules that are far from perfect. Then has to on-the-spot train a crew selected by a volunteer coordinator a whos only criterion was that they signed up on VMS and were screened. Then he has to spoon feed the rules to the teams, many of whom, as we all know by the questions here and the Q&A, didn’t bother to read them. Finally, he gets to make decisions that are sure to please only half of the people. He gets to be the focal point in what could be described as mother of all things waiting to go wrong.

So what does he get for doing his best with a very flawed process? He gets bad mouthed by ones he is serving, and stabbed in the back by the architects of that malfunction.

I’ve served with refs from Atlanta to Vegas and most points in between. I’ve seen people who had no business being on the floor – no concept of the game – no grasp of the rules – no officiating experience – or an obvious conflict of interest. I’ve seen good referring criticized on this forum by people who had no idea what they were talking about. Worse yet, I’ve seen very weak refs have the gall to come here and criticize others. What I have not seen was FIRST take exception as they would when the vitriol was directed at them.

We sat there at the Champs in ’05 and ’06 and listened as some of the rules got officially mangled. The ruling at GLR came nowhere near that kind of incongruity; it came nowhere near having as much of an impact on my psyche.

If we think that just anyone can step in and officiate, then that’s what we’ll get – just anyone. Meanwhile, the ones with real experience and talent and intelligence and jurisprudence will have gotten sick to their stomachs. They are rare; we are railroading have railroaded one of them!

[Libby K]

This is great news! Thanks, FIRST and the GDC for spelling it all out for us. Even though my team's not going to any other regional this season, and it doesn't directly affect me, I'm so glad to see that FIRST listened to all of us here, and has so quickly helped sort it out.

My confidence in FIRST as a whole has only gotten stronger. Keep on Inspirin'!

[Michael Corsetto]

Thank you FIRST for clarifying many of the issues that have popped up so far.

With that, I still think FIRST needs to clearly explain what goals it has for the match pairing algorithm. They keep saying the algorithm will be "improved", but they neglect to say in what way it will be improved, and to me it looks like they are still set on putting teams into the A, B and C categories, which to me is totally bogus. Section 9.3.2 states that teams will be paired up randomly, and to categorize teams by number seems like FIRST is in a way going behind our backs and hoping people don't notice. I just want and reason for segregating teams by number, thats all.

Mike C.