YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

[Natchez]

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You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

It's the Magnolia Regional championship rubber game! Redateam easily scores 5 low ringers and a couple of overlapping mid ringers to score 44 pre-bonus points. Satisfied with their 7 ringers, Redateam prepares for their traditional 60 bonus point ballet while Bluateam battles for every ringer and completes a 6 ringer top row to gain 64 pre-bonus points. Redabot deploys both of its independent ramps from each side of their robot. The first of Redabot's allies climbs on a ramp and is lifted in a matter of seconds; the second has trouble because the Redabot ramp is on top of a red ringer. After several attempts, the buzzer sounds with Redabot's unpopulated ramp still resting on the red ringer. The Redalliance gazes up from successfully lifting one robot to 17 inches to see that Bluateam has failed to get any of their robots off the ground. With a quick calculation, the Redalliance cheers crazily; in concert with Redateam's gaze, Bluateam lifts their head in disappointment of not scoring any bonus points. Realizing their second-place fate, the Blualliance holds their heads high while it seems that Redalliance is screaming from two inches away instead of the fifty foot reality. As the referees seemingly remove all hope from Blualliance by indicating no penalties, the Blualliance begins whispering and then erupts in jubilation without explanation.

Based on the 2007 Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

[sanddrag]

I don't get what the issue is here. That redateam had a ramp on a ringer? Not even an issue. They win.

Oh, and I object to the 30 pts being called "bonus" points. They are points awarded to a main strategy in the game. Just because there is no scoring structure or game piece associated with these points does not mean that they are extra, or bonus.

[fredliu168]

Red alliance robot was touching a game object, which by transitivity was touching the other robot. Therefore by the rule that states the robot must not be touching a game object, red loses the extra points and loses the match 64 to 44.

Is that right?

[Donut]

Blue alliance wins this match, because Redateam's ramps are still resting on a red ringer. Even though the ramp on the opposite side of Redabot as the lifted robot is the one supported by the ringer, any game field elements supporting a robot cause any robots supported by it to not count.

We lost a qualifier match at AZ due to this exact situation.

[Rich Ross]

YMTC isn't about this, to the best of my knowledge. Its about opinions, not about what the rules are

[SamC]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Oh, and I object to the 30 pts being called "bonus" points. They are points awarded to a main strategy in the game. Just because there is no scoring structure or game piece associated with these points does not mean that they are extra, or bonus.

Actually, they are referred to by the GDC as "bonus" points.

Originally Posted by 7-The Game -<G56>

ROBOTS in HOME ZONE - ROBOTS score bonus points at the end of the match if they are
entirely in their HOME ZONE, not in contact with any element of the field (carpet, alliance
station, goal, etc.), not supported by a GAME PIECE, and the lowest point of the ROBOT is
higher than 4 inches and/or 12 inches above the carpeted field surface. The number of
bonus points an ALLIANCE receives is based on the total number of ROBOTS satisfying
these conditions. Each ALLIANCE ROBOT entirely in their HOME ZONE at the end of the
match is eligible to receive the following bonus points:

• Each ROBOT between 0 and 3.9 inches above floor level - 0 bonus points
• Each ROBOT between 4.0 and 11.9 inches above floor level - 15 bonus points
• Each ROBOT 12.0 inches or more above floor level - 30 bonus points

Note: Entire rule quoted for clarification as to what the points earned are called and so there is quick reference to the rule(s) in question.

[EricH]

It's going to come down to: is the lifted red team going to be counted as supported?

[BoyWithCape195]

It points out that they are "independent" ramps. If the ramp the robot is on is not supported by the tube, then the robot should count. If you remove the tube and the robot that was lifted drops down in any way, then i could see that not counting, but if the tube is removed and the robot doesn't move at all, I would say it counts.

[Alex Golec]

For me, the call is easy: Is Redabot SUPPORTED - the term supplied in <G56> - by the ringer? I would say no, therefore making its bonus points legal.

The practical test for this would be to determine if Redabot would move if the game piece were removed. Since its wheels/etc. are on the ground physically supporting the structure, the fact that its nonlifted ramp rests on a ringer is inconsequential. If that ringer were to be removed, the position of the red alliance robots would not change.

I would call a win for Red, 74 to 64.

[Rich Ross]

delete this post.

[James1902]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Red alliance robot was touching a game object, which by transitivity was touching the other robot. Therefore by the rule that states the robot must not be touching a game object, red loses the extra points and loses the match 64 to 44.

I agree, the same rule apllies to the back wall. If the ramp bot is touching the back wall the bonus dosn't count even though the back wall isn't supporting the robot itself. Blue wins.

[Jack Jones]

The call will be made and the result determined by the highest ranking offical on scene. That's my preditction.

The lack of an appeals process means that the call will stand - at least until the next time it happens- then it's back to square one.

[Tetraman]

What you do, is remove or pop the ringer, and if the robot on the ramp loses height, than it doesn't count.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

What you do, is remove or pop the ringer, and if the robot on the ramp loses height, than it doesn't count.

Quoting <G103> The "robot loses height rule?

ADD: Too bad there isn't some kind of wireless communication we could use. So that during the regionals they could contact a Central Commitee, or supreme official, that could resolve all the hidden gray areas and define some of the wording. That way things wouldn't get called one way here, and another there. Oh well, guess we'll just have to wait till someone invents such a device.

[Travis Hoffman]

The fact that this poll is split almost 50/50 right now is sad. The fact that referees have actually taken points away from alliances fitting redateam's endgame description is sad.

Can we get a little common sense here, people? Can we get a shout out from FIRST to all refs to provide a 100% logical and reasonable directive on how to make this call? Will there ever be one day eventually where we stop feeling the need to debate these rules on this forum because the rules are crystal clear to everyone, and the refereeing education and monitoring system is actually strong enough to eliminate these inconsistent calls from event to event?

GAH. If I were blueateam's alliance captain, I'd be ashamed at winning should a call against redateam be made in this manner, and I'd immediately forfeit my hollow "victory" for the sake of promoting common sense, logic, and reason throughout FIRST. I would seriously refuse to accept the trophy, for I'd be ashamed to benefit from such a lame ruling that would presume a ringer holding up part of a ramp on one side of the rampbot's drivebase is somehow magically supporting the robot lifted 12"+ on the other side of the drivebase.

GET REAL!