You've downloaded my heart.
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
View Poll Results: You Make The Call
Redalliance wins the 2007 Magnolia Regional! 57 53.77%
Blualliance wins the 2007 Magnolia Regional 49 46.23%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 11:13
Brandon Holley's Avatar
Brandon Holley Brandon Holley is offline
Chase perfection. Catch excellence.
AKA: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
FRC #0125 (NU-TRONs, Team #11 Alumni (GO MORT))
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,593
Brandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Brandon Holley
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

GDC Says:
Under Rule <G56> (as amended in Team Update #3), Robots that are supported by a Game Piece can not earn Bonus Points. Under Rule <G55>, inflated and deflated Game Pieces are evaluated in the same way when determining the match score. Therefore, a Robot supported by a deflated Game Piece would not be able to earn any bonus points. This is a transitive property, and would also be true for any Robot supported by a robot supported by a Game Piece.



Is the robot lifting these robots supported by a game piece??? I say no...their ramp is...but their robot is not. Like people have said above me....COMMON SENSE PEOPLE...red lifted...red wins

I would also not accept the trophy if i were the blue alliance.
__________________
MORT (Team 11) '01-'05 :
-2005 New Jersey Regional Chairman's Award Winners
-2013 MORT Hall of Fame Inductee

NUTRONs (Team 125) '05-???
2007 Boston Regional Winners
2008 & 2009 Boston Regional Driving Tomorrow's Technology Award
2010 Boston Regional Creativity Award
2011 Bayou Regional Finalists, Innovation in Control Award, Boston Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award
2012 New York City Regional Winners, Boston Regional Finalists, IRI Mentor of the Year
2013 Orlando Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award, Boston Regional Winners, Pine Tree Regional Finalists
2014 Rhode Island District Winners, Excellence in Engineering Award, Northeastern University District Winners, Industrial Design Award, Pine Tree District Chairman's Award, Pine Tree District Winners
2015 South Florida Regional Chairman's Award, NU District Winners, NEDCMP Industrial Design Award, Hopper Division Finalists, Hopper/Newton Gracious Professionalism Award
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 12:08
dlavery's Avatar
dlavery dlavery is offline
Curmudgeon
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 3,176
dlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond repute
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Holley
Is the robot lifting these robots supported by a game piece??? I say no...their ramp is...but their robot is not.
For this logic to be true, then the ramp must not be considered part of the Robot. Can you show ANY rule, or Q&A answer, or Team Update, that would indicate that the ramp is not part of the Robot?

-dave
__________________
"I know what you're thinking, punk," hissed Wordy Harry to his new editor, "you're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' - and to tell the truth, I forgot myself in all this excitement; but being as this is English, the most powerful language in the world, whose subtle nuances will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' - well do you, punk?"
- Stuart Vasepuru, 2006 Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest



My OTHER CAR is still on Mars!!!
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 19:14
Brandon Holley's Avatar
Brandon Holley Brandon Holley is offline
Chase perfection. Catch excellence.
AKA: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
FRC #0125 (NU-TRONs, Team #11 Alumni (GO MORT))
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,593
Brandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Brandon Holley
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery View Post
For this logic to be true, then the ramp must not be considered part of the Robot. Can you show ANY rule, or Q&A answer, or Team Update, that would indicate that the ramp is not part of the Robot?

-dave
Why must everything be fact? I thought this was a place where one could state their opinion. I admit i misinterpreted this...but I did add "I say..." when I presented my opinion. The facts are the lift doesnt count...my opinion is the lift should count, as I DO NOT FEEL this was the intent of this rule, but thats just my opinion.
__________________
MORT (Team 11) '01-'05 :
-2005 New Jersey Regional Chairman's Award Winners
-2013 MORT Hall of Fame Inductee

NUTRONs (Team 125) '05-???
2007 Boston Regional Winners
2008 & 2009 Boston Regional Driving Tomorrow's Technology Award
2010 Boston Regional Creativity Award
2011 Bayou Regional Finalists, Innovation in Control Award, Boston Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award
2012 New York City Regional Winners, Boston Regional Finalists, IRI Mentor of the Year
2013 Orlando Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award, Boston Regional Winners, Pine Tree Regional Finalists
2014 Rhode Island District Winners, Excellence in Engineering Award, Northeastern University District Winners, Industrial Design Award, Pine Tree District Chairman's Award, Pine Tree District Winners
2015 South Florida Regional Chairman's Award, NU District Winners, NEDCMP Industrial Design Award, Hopper Division Finalists, Hopper/Newton Gracious Professionalism Award
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-03-2007, 09:59
dlavery's Avatar
dlavery dlavery is offline
Curmudgeon
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 3,176
dlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond repute
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Holley
Why must everything be fact? I thought this was a place where one could state their opinion.
Where ever possible, arguments should be supported by facts, under the basic provisions of the YMTC threads. As Lucien notes "please reference specific rules when applicable." This is important because the basic premise of YMTC is that you are the referee for the event. You are being asked to make an official ruling. Your job is to enforce the rules that exist. As such, all your rulings need to be supported by specific FRC rules and appropriate facts. As a referee, it is not your job to write new rules or inject your opinion on the propriety of the rules into the deliberation process for a specific call.

The elegance of the whole YMTC challenge is that it forces you to put yourself in the place of "the other guy" and try to understand how they view the world from their position. In this case, you have to try to understand the view of a game situation from the reference point of the referee. How you look at the game as a team member or a game player doesn't matter in this discussion. The only thing that does matter is how well you can understand the role of the referee, the job they have to do, and the type of decisions that they must make.

Why is this important? Because the ability to truly understand how "the other guy" thinks, and how they see the world from their point of view is a massively important skill. I have the utmost respect for the job the referees have to do, and the difficulty of their position. Exercises like this help us understand even better just how tough their job is. In the rare cases where we do have a serious objection to a decision that a referee may make, being able to understand their view of the situation can very frequently help to address the concern. At the very least, it makes us better prepared to consider the opposing side of an argument, understand the counter-points, and have appropriate considerations ready.

Learn to do that, and make it a regular skill that is consistently applied when trying to understand why a referee has made a particular call. And when you can do that, you will suddenly find that that skill is transferable to many, many other situations. That same skill is incredibly important when you are dealing with college professors, professional compatriots, business competitors, other organizations, other companies, and other countries. There is an unfortunately small percentage of people can really do this well. But those that can see the world from the other person's point of view are capable of making huge impacts on the world.

As has been said so many times before, FIRST is not just about the robots. In fact, the robot have almost nothing to do with it. The lessons, practices and skills to be learned in FIRST are so much larger than just learning how to put a few pieces of metal together and making them moved (although that is a wonderfully cool side benefit ). YMTC has very little to do with just seeing who knows the rulebook better than the other guy. Just like the rest of FIRST, it is so much deeper than that…

Quote:
Originally Posted by t. Hoffman
My brain hurts. "Interpret"....."Careful consideration".......these words imply the need to spend more than a few moments assembling the pieces of some nebulous puzzle. Rules shouldn't have to be interpreted - their intent should be obvious. The fact you believe we must "carefully consider" the meaning inherently suggests a problem with the rule in question. Why can't a rule be cut and dry?
Sorry, Travis, you don't get off that easy. I never said the rule required a lot of thought to understand. Nor did I say you had to think a lot to understand the meaning of the rule. What I did say was that if you considered the situation carefully, you would understand why the rule has to be the way it is. The rule is easy to understand. What requires some thought is trying to understand why the rule is necessary in the form it has. Read the discussion above, and try the same exercise. You are a smart guy, and you don't need to have the answer spoon-fed to you. Put yourself in the place of the GDC, and think about the information that was available at the time the rules were written (and more importantly, what was not available). Think about the variability of all the factors that are affected by the rule. Think about the position of the referee when calling the rule. Like I said, you are smart and you will get it. And when you do, that enlightenment may lead to understanding of why other rules are the way they are.

-dave
__________________
"I know what you're thinking, punk," hissed Wordy Harry to his new editor, "you're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' - and to tell the truth, I forgot myself in all this excitement; but being as this is English, the most powerful language in the world, whose subtle nuances will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' - well do you, punk?"
- Stuart Vasepuru, 2006 Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest



My OTHER CAR is still on Mars!!!
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 20:43
Goldeye Goldeye is offline
Registered User
AKA: Josh Hecht
FRC #0694 (Stuypulse)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 145
Goldeye has a spectacular aura aboutGoldeye has a spectacular aura aboutGoldeye has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via AIM to Goldeye
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery View Post
For this logic to be true, then the ramp must not be considered part of the Robot. Can you show ANY rule, or Q&A answer, or Team Update, that would indicate that the ramp is not part of the Robot?

-dave
The above logic isn't true either. For his statement to be true, either the ramp must not be part of the Robot, or the statement that support is a transitive property must be false. Brandon was implicity denying the assertion that support is transitive when he said what he did. He used the word as is most intuitive, especially considering what is actually the definition.


The statement that support is a transitive property is also not necessarily true, unless we take the GDC's words as automatic truth. It is true that if the entirety of the ramp robot was supported by a tube, then the raised robot would also be supported by that tube; however, it is not mentioned that the entire ramp robot is supported by the tube, nor can it be guaranteed if only part of the robot is supported. From a physical perspective, supported would seem to mean that the force on the tube remains the same or decreases in magnitude when the raised robot is placed on the ramp. In practice, if the raised robot's position remains the same when the tube is removed, it is apparently not significantly supported by the tube and probably not supported at all.

By this common-sense definition of support in the original rule, the bonus points would be awarded.
By the interpretation the GDC expressed, the bonus points are not awarded.

It seems to me the original interpretation is more in accordance with the spirit of the game. If I am wrong, the rule should stay as Q&A clarified. Otherwise, the GDC ought to thoroughly define support and not rely on the transitivity of it. For a term that has such an impact on the outcome of games, the common-sense definition clearly does not suffice. Between the poor understanding of the rule as written (as demonstrated by this split poll)
__________________
Team 694

2005 Championship - Galileo Semifinalist
2005 New York - Regional Chairmans Award
2005 New York - Semifinalist (Thanks 1257,1340)
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 20:10
rees2001 rees2001 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rees
FRC #0340 (Greater Rochester Robotics)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 802
rees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rees2001 View Post
end result: tie - 64 -64
redabot gets the 30 points bonus but gets a 10 point celebrating penalty & the teams have to play a 4th match....

almost happened.
Looks like I have to revise my post based on Dave's posting.
looks like the red alliance scored 44 points and the blue alliance scored 64. To add insult to injury the refs still give the red team a 10 point penalty for celebration.

Final score red 34 - blue 64. Blue wins the regional & the kids all collect their medals with pride because they know they just won.

edit** glad I waited to vote because I just broke the tie - blue team now wins the regional.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 21:50
Tristan Lall's Avatar
Tristan Lall Tristan Lall is offline
Registered User
FRC #0188 (Woburn Robotics)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,484
Tristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Cody has the right idea here: "supported" isn't a defined term in the manual (when referring to robots on top of each other). He quoted a standard layman's definition, which is a good starting point. But from a physics point of view, we need to ask ourselves whether supporting something means to withstand a normal force due to that thing, or if resistance to other forces (e.g. frictional forces) comes into play.

For the simple case where a robot is on top of another robot's ramp, and that ramp is on top of a toroid, the result is unambiguous: the top robot is obviously being (indirectly) borne upon the toroid. No points are scored.

For the more complex case where the top robot is on one ramp, and another ramp, independently connected, is on top of a toroid, the definition of support becomes important, as a matter of principle. Of course, given that the Q&A says that "any Robot supported by a robot supported by a Game Piece" does not earn bonus points, it seems that as far as the rules are concerned, there's still no question. No points are scored.

The real issue here is why the Q&A assumes that having Red 1, partially supported by a toroid and fully supporting Red 2 means that Red 2 is supported by that same toroid. Hypothetically, assume that Red 1's first ramp (supporting Red 2) is attached to the rest of the robot by a cable (too short to be an entanglement risk), and otherwise only supported on a series of legs, and its second ramp is mounted in some other fashion (let's say a hinge attached to the robot frame) and resting on top of a toroid. The only way that Red 2 is supported by the toroid is if the definition of supported also takes into account the internal forces within the cable. And because the cable could be slack, these aren't just tension forces; these could be the internal shear forces that resist the disintegration of the cable. That makes for a peculiar definition of support. I suspect that they just forgot to consider this case, but wrote the Q&A response in a way that inadvertently covers it. Alternatively, it could be written this way deliberately, to avoid the referees having to make a determination as to whether support exists—they just treat everything as supported.

Another case is a statically indeterminate system: Red 1's ramp that supports Red 2 also lightly pinches a toroid between the alliance station wall and the ramp. A friction force between the toroid and the ramp resists the downward motion of the ramp, as does a normal force (through the floor). If you take the toroid away, and nothing else moves, can we truly say that the ramp was not being supported by its friction force? Or do we now have friction to worry about when determining support? In actual fact, the forces on the ramp changed appreciably, and the microscopic deflections due to that frictional shear force are replaced with deflections due to the compressive normal force. On a practical level, a method of checking for this is impossible to implement. But if we aren't careful with our definition of "support", we shouldn't be surprised when someone argues that the inability of the referees to measure the state of the ramp shouldn't be an impediment to the theoretical implications of that state being taken into account when the rules are applied.

I should also note that there isn't a rule conflict here; as it stands, the rules and the Q&A are mutually consistent on this point. It's just that some of the more obscure consequences don't exactly follow from the justification provided. That doesn't make it a good ruling, but it does look like an enforceable one. As for the call, blue wins.

Last edited by Tristan Lall : 15-03-2007 at 21:57.
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 13:54
seanwitte seanwitte is offline
Registered User
None #0116
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 378
seanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to seanwitte
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Carey View Post
If I've ever seen "lawyering the rules", this is it. The purpose of this rule is so robots weren't designed to use tubes to elevate robots. There really is no sane way to interperet this as the redateam not getting the bonus points. The rule says that if the robot is "supported" by a gamepeice, then the points are null. Since the robot isn't in any way supported by a gamepiece, the points are definately earned.
The rule was clarified on February 26th in the Q&A. It's very clear. If you're on top of a game piece you cannot earn bonus points, and neither can any robot you're touching. I think it's a great rule since it makes it that much harder to get the extra points.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 15:38
Cody Carey's Avatar
Cody Carey Cody Carey is offline
,':-)
AKA: C. Carey
FRC #0306 (CRT)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Corry, PA
Posts: 1,137
Cody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cody Carey Send a message via Yahoo to Cody Carey
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwitte View Post
The rule was clarified on February 26th in the Q&A. It's very clear. If you're on top of a game piece you cannot earn bonus points, and neither can any robot you're touching. I think it's a great rule since it makes it that much harder to get the extra points.
The question adressed by the GDC was definately not the question asked in this thread. This thread says that there are two seperate ramps, a robot is picked up by one ramp, with no gamepeice supporting it at all. The other ramp has no robot on it, but is being touched by a gamepeice.


The GDC responded that any robot that is being supported by a gamepeice does not count for points. I would argue that none of the red robots are supported by a gamepeice. One part of the red bot is supported by the tube, that part is in no way connected with lifting the other robot.

It is times like this when we may have to look at the spirit of the rule. The spirit, I believe, is that you cannot gain extra height from a lift by being on top of a tube... not that a tube touching the robot, which has absolutely no effect on another robot being lifted will null the score.

If I were on the Blue alliance, I would most definately not accept any trophies that would be associated with winning this match on a small, stupid technicality. I would accept the fact that the red robot performed better at the given task, and not try to weasel my way into a win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Origional Q&A Question
If a deflated game piece is under a support lef of a ramp or platform will any robot on the top of the ramp be considered lifted?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GDC Response
Under Rule <G56> (as amended in Team Update #3), Robots that are supported by a Game Piece can not earn Bonus Points. Under Rule <G55>, inflated and deflated Game Pieces are evaluated in the same way when determining the match score. Therefore, a Robot supported by a deflated Game Piece would not be able to earn any bonus points. This is a transitive property, and would also be true for any Robot supported by a robot supported by a Game Piece.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 16:53
dlavery's Avatar
dlavery dlavery is offline
Curmudgeon
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 3,176
dlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond repute
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

From Chapter 7 of the manual:
Quote:
ROBOT: anything that has passed ROBOT inspection that a TEAM places on the field prior to the start of a match.
I don't see anything in the manual the provides for a separate definition of a Ramp or Robot that would indicate that a Ramp is NOT part of a Robot. Therefore, if Rule <G56> discusses Robots that are supported by Game Pieces, and per the definition a Ramp is equivalent to a Robot, and the Q&A makes it clear that a Robot supported by a Robot supported by a Game Piece cannot receive bonus points, then....

There really is only one way that the rules can be applied in this case. And if you think it through, you will see why it has to be that way. Some people will not like the correct interpretation (actually, since the current voting is virtually 50-50, about half of them won't like it ). Lucien has done a great job of using an extreme case to motivate the discussion. But careful consideration of the moderate cases will reveal why the rule, the application of the rule, and the outcome of the example match, have to be the way they are.

Lucien, this was an absolutely brilliant YMTC to post. I must admit, I am finding this whole discussion quite interesting. For the past two and a half months (actually, for the past several competition seasons) we have seen a significant percentage of the community all up in arms about referees that don't enforce the rules exactly as written, about how strict interpretations must be the only interpretations of the rules, hair-splitting over definitions of individual words used in the rules and their meanings, and overt "lawyering." Entire teams are saying they are going to go do VEX. Senior mentors are threatening to quit. Chicken Little is screaming about this being the beginning of the end for FIRST.

And yet, when a very plausible situation is discussed, many of those very same people are the very first ones to start saying "well, the rules really don't mean that. And even if they do, let's redefine them on the fly so that they mean something different. After all, they shouldn't be enforced that way..." The honor of a team that might benefit from strict adherence to the rules is now being questioned. Phrased like "I would be embarrassed," "shameful," and " forfeit a hollow victory" are being thrown around. A reprise of Marlon Brando's 1973 refusal to accept an Oscar is being touted as the only appropriate action.

The inconsistency in the positions being taken is fascinating to observe.

-dave
__________________
"I know what you're thinking, punk," hissed Wordy Harry to his new editor, "you're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' - and to tell the truth, I forgot myself in all this excitement; but being as this is English, the most powerful language in the world, whose subtle nuances will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' - well do you, punk?"
- Stuart Vasepuru, 2006 Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest



My OTHER CAR is still on Mars!!!
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 22:15
Travis Hoffman's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Travis Hoffman Travis Hoffman is offline
O-H
FRC #0048 (Delphi E.L.I.T.E.)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Warren, Ohio USA
Posts: 4,047
Travis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Hoffman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Current Definition of G56:

ROBOTS in HOME ZONE - ROBOTS score bonus points at the end of the match if they are entirely in their HOME ZONE, not in contact with any element of the field (carpet, alliance station, goal, etc.), not supported by a GAME PIECE, and the lowest point of the ROBOT is higher than 4 inches and/or 12 inches above the carpeted field surface. The number of
bonus points an ALLIANCE receives is based on the total number of ROBOTS satisfying these conditions. Each ALLIANCE ROBOT entirely in their HOME ZONE at the end of the match is eligible to receive the following bonus points:
Each ROBOT between 0 and 3.9 inches above floor level - 0 bonus points
Each ROBOT between 4.0 and 11.9 inches above floor level - 15 bonus points
Each ROBOT 12.0 inches or more above floor level - 30 bonus points


Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery View Post
From Chapter 7 of the manual:
I don't see anything in the manual the provides for a separate definition of a Ramp or Robot that would indicate that a Ramp is NOT part of a Robot. Therefore, if Rule <G56> discusses Robots that are supported by Game Pieces, and per the definition a Ramp is equivalent to a Robot, and the Q&A makes it clear that a Robot supported by a Robot supported by a Game Piece cannot receive bonus points, then....
Ironically, the above sounds a lot like the lawyer speak the GDC attempts to discourage. If the party of the first part offends the second part because the first part didn't serve those tasty little wiener in a blanket hors d’œuvres the second part's third part expected to see at the party of the first part.....

Why must so many original game manual rules require more than a cursory two second analysis to determine without a doubt what the intent is? Why must there be so many Q&A clarifications for these rules in the first place? Why can't the original definition clearly communicate the intent?

I believe Cody is correct - I cannot find the definition of "supported" anywhere within the Game Rules. Lacking any knowledge of the GDC's opinion of what "supported" means (do you think we should automatically know?), most people would tend to arrive at the same conclusion - that a ringer stuck under a rampbot's ramp all the way on the other side of the rampbot does nothing to support the lifted robot on the other side. Indeed, most people I've heard have independently arrived at the same opinion - that the rule simply said a robot on a lifting mechanism supported DIRECTLY by a game piece is not to receive the bonus points. If the GDC intended for the YMTC situation to nullify bonus points all along, then they shouldn't be publishing a Q&A clarification on the matter on 2/26; they should have instead incorporated it into the original release in early January.

I think the 50/50 split in the voting is a result of a division between those who have read the Q&A "clarification" and those who haven't. I freely admit, I wasn't aware of the Q&A posting. I've read many - that one I missed among the myriad others that have been posted. Some believe reading the Q&A religiously should be a natural part of any team's daily routine. Others, like me, believe team members are already stretched to the limit in their efforts to keep a team functioning smoothly, and they would prefer if the rules were actually clear, concise, and easily interpreted as originally written.

Quote:

There really is only one way that the rules can be applied in this case. And if you think it through, you will see why it has to be that way. Some people will not like the correct interpretation (actually, since the current voting is virtually 50-50, about half of them won't like it ). Lucien has done a great job of using an extreme case to motivate the discussion. But careful consideration of the moderate cases will reveal why the rule, the application of the rule, and the outcome of the example match, have to be the way they are.
My brain hurts.

"Interpret"....."Careful consideration".......these words imply the need to spend more than a few moments assembling the pieces of some nebulous puzzle. Rules shouldn't have to be interpreted - their intent should be obvious. The fact you believe we must "carefully consider" the meaning inherently suggests a problem with the rule in question. Why can't a rule be cut and dry? Just say what you mean from the beginning!

Quote:
Lucien, this was an absolutely brilliant YMTC to post. I must admit, I am finding this whole discussion quite interesting. For the past two and a half months (actually, for the past several competition seasons) we have seen a significant percentage of the community all up in arms about referees that don't enforce the rules exactly as written, about how strict interpretations must be the only interpretations of the rules, hair-splitting over definitions of individual words used in the rules and their meanings, and overt "lawyering." Entire teams are saying they are going to go do VEX. Senior mentors are threatening to quit. Chicken Little is screaming about this being the beginning of the end for FIRST.
And you doubt the validity of the frustrations that are the backbone of these reactions? Take care to heed these warning signs - these people aren't getting upset for trivial reasons. In the case of referee criticisms (which are probably most trivial of all the concerns being voiced by teams), most of the ire has derived from referees or others trying to rewrite ESTABLISHED, WELL-DEFINED RULES to mold the game in their own image. This year's curious decision to prohibit defense against tubeless robots at GLR would be one prime example. The tendency to progressively deconstruct and rewrite the orginally-well established defensive contact rules in 2005 is another. When people believe rules are rock solid and then find out some people of influence presume they can rewrite them at will, changing the gameplay on a whim, it tends to upset them.


Quote:

And yet, when a very plausible situation is discussed, many of those very same people are the very first ones to start saying "well, the rules really don't mean that. And even if they do, let's redefine them on the fly so that they mean something different. After all, they shouldn't be enforced that way..."
In my case, I only question rules that were never really well-defined in the first place. It's hard to redefine something that has no original definition. Heck, no matter how bizarre, goofy, or just plain dumb I think a game rule is, if it is clearly stated in the original manual, I'd have no beef with it. I'd just view it as another part of the challenge. I don't view Q&A responses released six days after the ship date in the same light. By the way, I believe these responses, according to the GDC, aren't to be treated as official rule revisions - I still don't see anything in the "official" manual description of G56 that makes this YMTC decision a no-brainer.


Quote:
The honor of a team that might benefit from strict adherence to the rules is now being questioned. Phrased like "I would be embarrassed," "shameful," and " forfeit a hollow victory" are being thrown around. A reprise of Marlon Brando's 1973 refusal to accept an Oscar is being touted as the only appropriate action.
I believe this would be an appropriate reaction given the (still) nebulous nature of this rule as written in the manual. If the rule's intent were obvious as it was originally written, then heck, it'd just be another quirky part of the game, and I'd gladly accept the champion's trophy. But if I felt a poorly-defined and communicated (post ship date, no less!) rule snuck up and smacked a team upside the head at the most heart-wrenching moment, I'd seriously consider refusing to accept the victory as valid. Perhaps there's nothing FIRST would let me do to officially decline the trophy, but I'd at least make a symbolic gesture, if anything to bring the problematic rule to the spotlight of public opinion.

*This all presumes my team could actually win a regional in the first place.

I suppose it is good someone is going the "cute" route to illustrate the current GDC intent of G56 via this YMTC, but it is truly sad that the 50% of poll respondents who didn't "get it right" weren't given the opportunity to quickly learn of the rule's intent when they first printed out their manuals in January.......
__________________

Travis Hoffman, Enginerd, FRC Team 48 Delphi E.L.I.T.E.
Encouraging Learning in Technology and Engineering - www.delphielite.com
NEOFRA - Northeast Ohio FIRST Robotics Alliance - www.neofra.com
NEOFRA / Delphi E.L.I.T.E. FLL Regional Partner

Last edited by Travis Hoffman : 15-03-2007 at 22:43.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 22:46
Kevin Sevcik's Avatar
Kevin Sevcik Kevin Sevcik is offline
(Insert witty comment here)
FRC #0057 (The Leopards)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,769
Kevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kevin Sevcik Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin Sevcik
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

I've been waiting on this one, hoping sanity might prevail. As I see that it hasn't, I thought I'd comment real quick. As I read the Q&A, the only way it can be interpreted is that Red 2 is supported by Red 1 is supported by a ringer, thus no bonus. However, instead of reaching the conclusion that this is the exact interpretation the GDC intended here and is thus holy law writ in stone, I'm hoping someone will come to their senses and re-clarify this issue in a new Q&A. A headache and hair tearing example follows:

Our robot holds its ramps together with a piece of spectra cable attached to one ramp. Upon deployment, the cable often swings out past the ramp to lay on the floor. Thus, when both ramps are lifted, the cable might hang down from the end of the ramp. So according to this ruling, if our cable happens to end up hanging down from the end of the ramp, laying on the top of a ringer, then 2 robots 13" off the ground magically become 0 points. Because of a piece of string that is, in fact, completely and utterly physically incapable of supporting any load whatsoever in compression. A piece of string, people. Or broken chain, or a busted arm, or, you know, anything at all, really.

Speaking of, here's a fun new strategy to employ based on this interpretation. If you have a poor ramp bot, grab a ringer and wait until your opponent lifts or has robots on top of him and is utterly incapable of defending himself. Shove the ringer under his ramp or, indeed, any available part of his robot. In fact, as long as it's in contact with any dorsal surface of his robot, you're good. Incur a 10 point penalty, maybe, but observe with malevolent glee that your opponent has now been robbed of a whopping 60 points. Repeat until you've waltzed your way through elims.

Note: The above strategy is meant to show that this is silly. Okaying a strategy that completely nullifies most all ramp bots and can be implemented while they're utterly defenseless seems pretty darn silly to me.
__________________
The difficult we do today; the impossible we do tomorrow. Miracles by appointment only.

Lone Star Regional Troubleshooter

Last edited by Kevin Sevcik : 15-03-2007 at 23:11.
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 17:03
seanwitte seanwitte is offline
Registered User
None #0116
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 378
seanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant futureseanwitte has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to seanwitte
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Carey View Post
The question adressed by the GDC was definately not the question asked in this thread. This thread says that there are two seperate ramps, a robot is picked up by one ramp, with no gamepeice supporting it at all. The other ramp has no robot on it, but is being touched by a gamepeice.
OK, so the ramps are not part of the robot?

Quote:
It is times like this when we may have to look at the spirit of the rule. The spirit, I believe, is that you cannot gain extra height from a lift by being on top of a tube... not that a tube touching the robot, which has absolutely no effect on another robot being lifted will null the score.
There really isn't any gray area here. A part of the robot is on top of a tube, therefore that robot and any robots on top of it are not eligible for bonus points. Whether it's being supported or not, the rule is very clear. Unless you're on the GDC you have no idea what the motivation behind the rule is. How do you know this wasn't intentional to make it more difficult to get those 60 bonus points? You can't just flop your ramps down willy-nilly and expect to score the bonus.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 17:18
Cody Carey's Avatar
Cody Carey Cody Carey is offline
,':-)
AKA: C. Carey
FRC #0306 (CRT)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Corry, PA
Posts: 1,137
Cody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cody Carey Send a message via Yahoo to Cody Carey
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

What is the definition of supported?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2007, 17:47
Cody Carey's Avatar
Cody Carey Cody Carey is offline
,':-)
AKA: C. Carey
FRC #0306 (CRT)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Corry, PA
Posts: 1,137
Cody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cody Carey Send a message via Yahoo to Cody Carey
Re: YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster online dictionary
Main Entry:1sup·port Pronunciation: \sə-ˈpȯrt\ Function:transitive verb Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French supporter, from Late Latin supportare, from Latin, to transport, from sub- + portare to carry — more at fareDate:14th century 1: to endure bravely or quietly : bear2 a (1): to promote the interests or cause of (2): to uphold or defend as valid or right : advocate <supports fair play> (3): to argue or vote for <supported the motion to lower taxes> b (1): assist, help <bombers supported the ground troops> (2): to act with (a star actor) (3): to bid in bridge so as to show support for c: to provide with substantiation : corroborate <support an alibi>3 a: to pay the costs of : maintain <support a family> b: to provide a basis for the existence or subsistence of <the island could probably support three — A. B. C. Whipple> <support a habit>4 a: to hold up or serve as a foundation or prop for b: to maintain (a price) at a desired level by purchases or loans; also : to maintain the price of by purchases or loans5: to keep from fainting, yielding, or losing courage : comfort6: to keep (something) going

Since there was no definition supplied in the manual, I can only go with the next best thing: Merriam-Webster. The only definition that applies to our focus is number four a, "to hold up or serve as a foundation or prop for".
In this case, is the tube Holding up or serving as a foundation for anything? I don't believe so. If you remove the tube, The elevated robot stays where it is at... and the Elevating robot certainly won't tip over, or fall into the ground due to lack of ringer.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
YMTC: Redabot Disrupts Ringers Natchez You Make The Call 13 16-01-2007 23:34
Createing a platform for bonus points... GMKlenklen Technical Discussion 12 12-01-2007 16:17
pic: YMTC: 150 points or 100 points? CD47-Bot Extra Discussion 4 25-03-2004 01:53
Ventures Bonus Points Brandon Martus Announcements 0 17-03-2003 10:37


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:40.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi