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  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2007, 08:50
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Originally Posted by Carol View Post
I agree with that. Hanging a keeper has little or no effect on the final score, especially as compared to last year. Many teams didn't even bother trying to design an autonomous program this year. Is the GDC deliberately trying to level the playing field by de-emphasizing autonomous? It's another aspect of the game that can make it interesting, IMHO.
With all this D being played, the first 15 seconds is even more important. If you can get 1-2 keepers on the rack it allows you to get those rings extended that much faster. auto-period will make or break close matches.

Last edited by wilsonmw04 : 19-03-2007 at 08:52.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 10:00
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

With all of the defense played at detroit, auto mode helped out. It gave the alliance 1 more keeper to add to the final score. Although this year there isnt a whole lot of a point to making auto mode (it only awards you 2 points, unlike other years when you would get a bonus for winning auto). In the end it gave those alliances an advantage over the other alliance.

Yes the first 15 seconds are the most important, in our allaince (469,302,1502) we could put up about 3 in the first 15 seconds untill the defense was coming at you.

The only default i see in this game is the points awarded for ramps. Like one of our team members said "everyone is going to make a ramp because their easy points so its not worth adding on our robot". The ramp bonus is making this game more defensive, because teams can go and push and pin the scoring teams until the last 30 seconds then get on a ramp and win. We have all seen this happen time after time.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 10:44
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Originally Posted by freestylemotox View Post
The ramp bonus is making this game more defensive, because teams can go and push and pin the scoring teams until the last 30 seconds then get on a ramp and win. We have all seen this happen time after time.
What about pushing the pushers? Some of the best rushing offenses in the NFL have great fullbacks lead blocking for them.....
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Unread 19-03-2007, 10:52
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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What about pushing the pushers? Some of the best rushing offenses in the NFL have great fullbacks lead blocking for them.....
There are 3 types of defense this year. The first is defending the rack from the opposing alliances best scorers. The second is defending your best scorers against the opposing alliances defense. And the third is blocking the ramp bot from getting back to the home zone.

Strategy, Alliance compatability, and teamwork are essential this year.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 11:07
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
It is very interesting to see the complaints about heavy defense and ramp bonus in the Week 3 thread. UTC is always defensive, and 25, frankly, should have been prepared. I am not surprised that they were shut out twice during the finals and encountered heavy defense. Detroit is a little more interesting, but defense is often common in smaller regionals, as the quantity of proficient offensive bots is lower, allowing for defensive teams to take a more prominent role (despite the powerhouse offensive machines).
At Chesapeake (and apparently at Peachtree as well) we saw a whole new game. It might have been, in part, due to the lack of very many quality ramp bots, but isn't the only explanation. The winning alliance at Chesapeake scored a TOTAL (yes, a TOTAL) of ZERO bonus points. 293, 75, and 203 won through the rack and the rack alone. 293 and 75 scored early and quickly on the top level of the rack, a place few other bots could effectively challenge them, and managed to create several long rows (5-7) capable of outweighing any bonus points the other alliance might have gotten. Much like the NJ regional, if the other alliance retreated to score bonus points, 75 and 293 would extend their row long enough to outscore them. 203 played enough defense to prevent the other alliances from creating longer rows beneath. The opposition even resorted to spoilers, but the one time it was placed on a long row, 293 actually removed it (and almost placed it over an opposition ringer). Judging from the reports and pictures I have heard about Peachtree, it was much of the same.
There are several explanations behind this. One is the lack of quality 2@12" ramps. They were few and far between, but even when they did play, they didn't mean a guaranteed win. Another is the stricter reffing at Chesapeake. More penalties were called than at other regionals, but even this didn't fully discourage defense (and it was still very common and quite intense).
As the game evolves, I think we'll see these two styles of play meet somewhere in the middle. Most of the complaints in this thread originate from a New England regional, and a regional with less than 30 teams, both of which create defensive regionals. But Peachtree was a very defensive regional when we attended in 2006, but the winning alliance (as shown here) managed to score 260 points on the rack alone. At the Championship, the quantity of powerful offensive machines will be high enough to create a game between these two realms. Well executed driving and multiple offensive machines will allow for scoring on the rack, while smart placement will prevent many long rows (resulting in lower rack scores, which keeps ramp points important). Spoilers will continue to play a prominent role, especially when larger rows do form, but the value of removing them will also increase. The value of autonomous will definitely be shown as well. Not only are keepers protected from being spoiled, but autonomous essentially represents 15 additional seconds to score (and a keeper is essentially an extra ringer). Because of the exponential scoring, an extra ringer doubles the points of the row (duh), as well as cuts your opponents possible score on that row in half. Imagine now if an alliance can score 5 rings on a purely defensive alliance. Without a keeper, they might lose 60-32 because of bonus points. With the keeper it's a 62-60 win. Now imagine when 2 or 3 bots on that alliance can score keepers.
A lesson learned for Atlanta.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 11:20
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

So far in this thread, I hear alot of whining, and not enough chatter about how to improve, how to make this game better.

I think this game is getting better as it progresses, still not the best FIRST has mad...by far. But its becoming a little better to watch. I actually saw a QF match this weekend that had half the rack full. I was astonished.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 11:52
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Originally Posted by Corey Balint View Post
So far in this thread, I hear alot of whining, and not enough chatter about how to improve, how to make this game better.

I think this game is getting better as it progresses, still not the best FIRST has mad...by far. But its becoming a little better to watch. I actually saw a QF match this weekend that had half the rack full. I was astonished.
...speaking of which:
It seemed to me that /EDIT/ QUARTER final play was more fun to watch than final play.
The matches weren't blown out either. As you said Corey, there were many tubes on the rack from both alliances.

interesting...
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Unread 19-03-2007, 12:17
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Originally Posted by Henry_222 View Post
...speaking of which:
It seemed to me that semi-final play was more fun to watch than final play.
The matches weren't blown out either. As you said Corey, there were many tubes on the rack from both alliances.
interesting...
Are you talking about any regional inparticular or just overall?
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Unread 19-03-2007, 12:36
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Originally Posted by Carol View Post
I agree with that. Hanging a keeper has little or no effect on the final score, especially as compared to last year. Many teams didn't even bother trying to design an autonomous program this year. Is the GDC deliberately trying to level the playing field by de-emphasizing autonomous? It's another aspect of the game that can make it interesting, IMHO.
Teams are missing (understimating) the value of automomous. The true value of the keeper is NOT 2 points. Look at the match a different way (backwards rather than forwards). Evaluate the keeper's worth by looking at tube positions at the END of the match. The keeper is an incremental tube scored in a row. Without it, an alliance would have one fewer tubes creating the exponential score. Example: At the conclusion of a match an alliance with a row of 6 including a keeper would score 64. Without the keeper, 32. The keeper value is actually 2^n - (2^(n-1)), where "n" is the series number of tubes in the keeper's row.

With more and more defense being played, and with more strategic placement of tubes and spoilers, the incremental exponential value of a keeper will be much more important than its 2 point illusion.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 13:43
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

One thing we realized at SVR this year is that it is not possible to win a match if there is only one scoring robot on your alliance and the other alliance has a ramp bot. That was the case with us a lot. After we racked up 290 points in the first match of the regional with team 100, they just double or sometimes triple teamed us so we couldnt score then got 60 points for ramps. Our alliance did great trying to keep the opposing alliance away from us but 3 robots coming at us is to much to defend against. one thing I did notice about rough defense was in the first round of quarter finals we attempted to score and 190 pushed us into the rack and ended up spinning the rack about 90 degrees. I was heated and insisted it was a pinning penalty because I couldn't move but I went to the head ref and asked him to clarify. He said that as long as we have a keeper in our possession the other alliance could pin us against the rack as long as they wanted. I thought it was a wrong call but I didnt argue and ended up having to drop many ringers in the match to follow im order to get 190 to stop pinning us... We lost, but props to 190, that was the most intense defense I have ever experienced in 3 years of driving.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 13:51
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Originally Posted by burkechrs1 View Post
He said that as long as we have a keeper in our possession the other alliance could pin us against the rack as long as they wanted. I thought it was a wrong call but I didnt argue and ended up having to drop many ringers in the match to follow im order to get 190 to stop pinning us...
This is correct, as per <G39>. Our alliance received a pinning penalty during the elimination rounds that was announced in such a way as to make it seem like it was illegal to pin a robot that was not carrying a game piece against the rack. I had a long conversation with the head ref. to ensure that both he and I were understanding the rule correctly and, after that, was satisfied that he was calling <G39> correctly.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 14:24
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Originally Posted by burkechrs1 View Post
We lost, but props to 190, that was the most intense defense I have ever experienced in 3 years of driving.
thanks for the compliment. It might pain you to know that our driver was actually holding back on the defense to avoid penalties. Back on the east coast, it can get MUCH more intense. Just come to New Jersey or Connecticut sometime to see what I mean.

I don't, however, agree with the ref's explanation. Rule <G39> is a little ambiguous as to WHO exactly is immune, but the way I read it was "you may pin another robot between you and the rack if you are attempting to hang a ringer" as opposed to "you may be pinned if you are attempting to hang a ringer", as the refs called it. Maybe this should be clarified on the Q&A about exactly which robot is immune...
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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:38
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Are you talking about any regional inparticular or just overall?
Specifcly UTC, congrats btw. I saw most of that regional via webcast but I think the same is true for midwest; I am not sure how far in to elims I started watching matches there though. I am waiting for archived webcast of some more regionals before I make a couple of week 4 Boston predictions based on many things, including what happened at UTC primarily because of their relative location.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:38
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
It is very interesting to see the complaints about heavy defense and ramp bonus in the Week 3 thread. UTC is always defensive, and 25, frankly, should have been prepared. I am not surprised that they were shut out twice during the finals and encountered heavy defense. Detroit is a little more interesting, but defense is often common in smaller regionals, as the quantity of proficient offensive bots is lower, allowing for defensive teams to take a more prominent role (despite the powerhouse offensive machines).
At Chesapeake (and apparently at Peachtree as well) we saw a whole new game. It might have been, in part, due to the lack of very many quality ramp bots, but isn't the only explanation. The winning alliance at Chesapeake scored a TOTAL (yes, a TOTAL) of ZERO bonus points. 293, 75, and 203 won through the rack and the rack alone. 293 and 75 scored early and quickly on the top level of the rack, a place few other bots could effectively challenge them, and managed to create several long rows (5-7) capable of outweighing any bonus points the other alliance might have gotten. Much like the NJ regional, if the other alliance retreated to score bonus points, 75 and 293 would extend their row long enough to outscore them. 203 played enough defense to prevent the other alliances from creating longer rows beneath. The opposition even resorted to spoilers, but the one time it was placed on a long row, 293 actually removed it (and almost placed it over an opposition ringer). Judging from the reports and pictures I have heard about Peachtree, it was much of the same.
There are several explanations behind this. One is the lack of quality 2@12" ramps. They were few and far between, but even when they did play, they didn't mean a guaranteed win. Another is the stricter reffing at Chesapeake. More penalties were called than at other regionals, but even this didn't fully discourage defense (and it was still very common and quite intense).
As the game evolves, I think we'll see these two styles of play meet somewhere in the middle. Most of the complaints in this thread originate from a New England regional, and a regional with less than 30 teams, both of which create defensive regionals. But Peachtree was a very defensive regional when we attended in 2006, but the winning alliance (as shown here) managed to score 260 points on the rack alone. At the Championship, the quantity of powerful offensive machines will be high enough to create a game between these two realms. Well executed driving and multiple offensive machines will allow for scoring on the rack, while smart placement will prevent many long rows (resulting in lower rack scores, which keeps ramp points important). Spoilers will continue to play a prominent role, especially when larger rows do form, but the value of removing them will also increase. The value of autonomous will definitely be shown as well. Not only are keepers protected from being spoiled, but autonomous essentially represents 15 additional seconds to score (and a keeper is essentially an extra ringer). Because of the exponential scoring, an extra ringer doubles the points of the row (duh), as well as cuts your opponents possible score on that row in half. Imagine now if an alliance can score 5 rings on a purely defensive alliance. Without a keeper, they might lose 60-32 because of bonus points. With the keeper it's a 62-60 win. Now imagine when 2 or 3 bots on that alliance can score keepers.
Don't get it twisted, we expected heavy defense, who didnt. We also expected the same protection from the rules, just as any other team. Not saying the refs were wrong, it jus felt as though everyone wanted us to push back...and when we did, we were the only ones who were doin <G35> and/or <G39> and i will speak for myself, when i didnt know using a different strategy means being shut out.

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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:43
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Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll

When he says "Shut out" I believe he was saying it in the sense of the alliance having a final score of 0.

Seen

Here: http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...p?matchid=1342

and

Here: http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...p?matchid=1344


Edit: I would also like to know what matches your team keeps bringing up where things were "not called".
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2005 Curie Division Quarterfinalists (703 and 234)
2005 UTC Semifinalist (228 and 236)
2004 UTC Entrepreneurship Award
2004 New Jersey Semifinalists (173 and 11)
2004 New Jersey Sportsmanship Award

Last edited by BoyWithCape195 : 19-03-2007 at 15:48.
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