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Unread 19-03-2007, 14:24
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

During the second final match at the Midwest Regional, Wildstang had deployed their ramp and, from what I could see, was penalized because their side shielding had come off of the robot and was lying just barely over the line. That was kind of goofy, but what can you do? It's all about interpretation.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:13
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

At the Boilermaker, I must say the refs were some of the best I have ever seen. They were fair and consistent throughout the weekend. Taking the time to warn teams before giving out penalties for all but the most flagrant violations. It seemed as though they gave penalties for ramps that totally deployed outside the HZ and if at the end of the match either your ramp or arm were outside they gave you a penalty then. Having your arm or ramp just outside the HZ while trying to position was not given a penalty as long as you were making an effort to get back in the HZ. A small corner of our ramps went outside the HZ a couple times without penalties. One time we forgot to put our arm down and after resting it on top of the alliance station wall and not taking corrective action fast enough we were penalized and I believe we were also disabled. The refs seemed to want to let the teams play by not calling penalties that did not harm other robots or have a huge affect on the game. A real common sense approach that was very much appreciated. Total deployment of ramps in the middle of the field, penalty every time. A couple inches out while trying to allign the ramps in the HZ during the end game and making sure that at the end you are completely within the HZ, no penalty.

Last edited by ALIBI : 19-03-2007 at 15:17.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:20
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

At UTC we had a fragile drive train but a good ramp, so we just sat there and deployed early. In one QF match our ramp wouldn't deploy (the battery cable was looped over the pushing arm), so we went out to play defense. The first time we got hit our ramps went out, giving us a 10pt penalty, but netting 50pts and the win after we made it back to the HZ and had both partners drive up.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:22
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

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Originally Posted by ALIBI View Post
At the Boilermaker, I must say the refs were some of the best I have ever seen.
Agreed they did a great job and are an example for all FIRST referees to follow.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:29
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

We were having some initial problems with one of the servos that release one of our ramps to fall down at Bayou. It seems that there is a short period of time between autonomous and human control when the servos are without power and this would cause one of our releases to disengage. Anyway, in a couple of our early matches (before the problem was diagnosed and fixed) we would take off under driver control and BANG one of our ramps would deploy in the middle of the field leaving us no choice but to return to the home zone and sit and wait out the match ready for an alliance partner to climb up. We were clearly larger than 72”x72” in the middle of the field but there was never a penalty called against us. We were surprised, but then again, there was a lot going on at the Bayou that should have been called but wasn’t. Fortunately, we think our ramp/release problem is now fixed and we should be ready to go in Atlanta!
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Unread 19-03-2007, 16:18
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

I remember our one of our ramps coming down half way through a match because someone rammed us, no penalty. We hit them back, accidentally close lined someone with it, then did some defense before getting back to the home zone near the end. No penalty. SV regional. We might have got a warning but I wasn't on the field so I don't know. All I know is it happened twice and no points were lost.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 16:20
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

At NYC we flagged the penalty if any portion of the base of the robot exceeded the 72" limit outside the home zone. We did count being partially in the home zone as a penalty, however we didn't flag robots whose arms or other parts exceeded the limit but weren't resting on the ground past the line as that would be very hard to judge in the heat of the moment. It was a rather hard rule to judge, however most of the times we called it the robots were significantly outside the home zone.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 16:28
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Re: Half in the HomeZone half in the field

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
This was not the case at the Great Lakes Regional. Teams were only penalized if 72"x72" were outside of the end zone. Teams who were slightly outside the endzone were never penalized.

Can anyone who attended other regionals describe how this rule was enforced?

at detroit if your robot was even a hair outside of the box then you got a penalty. It was a little harsh but i guess im not the judge
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Unread 19-03-2007, 22:34
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Re: Half in the HomeZone half in the field

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Originally Posted by freestylemotox View Post
at detroit if your robot was even a hair outside of the box then you got a penalty. It was a little harsh but i guess im not the judge
True (although "an inch" should probably replace "a hair" - you did have to be far enough out so that it could clearly be seen.) However, if you accidentally deployed early, you would get the penalty but would not get a disable/dq if you retreated to the home zone immediately and didn't interfere with any opponents on the way.
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Unread 20-03-2007, 07:15
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

Here's is what I found in the FIRST Q&A:

Assume the following condition:
Our bot deploys a platform and ramp for another bot to climb. Our bot is in the home zone but part of our ramp extends past the home zone line. A bot climbs the ramp and sits on the platform. That bot, and the platform, are clearly within the home zone.

Does the bot on the platform score the points even though our ramp extends outside of the home zone?

Can a robot that is supporting the raised robot be partially out of the home zone as long as the raised robot is within the home zone?

Answer:
Under the provisions of Rule <G56>, each robot entirely within the Home Zone at the end of the match may be eligible for bonus points (depending upon the height off the floor that the robot is raised). If the robot is being supported off the floor by another robot, there is no requirement that the supporting robot be entirely within the Home Zone.

So it's legal to be outside the HZ as long as the supported bots are entirely in the HZ.
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Unread 20-03-2007, 07:36
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

At FLR the same thing happened our alliance partner accientally deployed their lifter outside of the HZ and they were penalized.

We also were penalized when the opposing alliance pushed their lifter out side of the HZ. Was that seen anywhere else?
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Unread 20-03-2007, 07:54
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges View Post
Answer:
Under the provisions of Rule <G56>, each robot entirely within the Home Zone at the end of the match may be eligible for bonus points (depending upon the height off the floor that the robot is raised). If the robot is being supported off the floor by another robot, there is no requirement that the supporting robot be entirely within the Home Zone.

So it's legal to be outside the HZ as long as the supported bots are entirely in the HZ.
So while the bonus points for the supported robot count, wouldn't the ramp robot who is outside the HZ collect penalty violations as well (if they are >72" - from what I have seen, any sort of action by such a robot that breaks the plane of the HZ has been flagged with a penalty)? It doesn't say in that Q&A response that it was legal for robots to be outside the HZ, just that the bonus points for the robots being supported count...
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Last edited by TD78 : 20-03-2007 at 07:58.
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Unread 20-03-2007, 11:58
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALIBI View Post
At the Boilermaker, I must say the refs were some of the best I have ever seen. They were fair and consistent throughout the weekend. Taking the time to warn teams before giving out penalties for all but the most flagrant violations. It seemed as though they gave penalties for ramps that totally deployed outside the HZ and if at the end of the match either your ramp or arm were outside they gave you a penalty then. Having your arm or ramp just outside the HZ while trying to position was not given a penalty as long as you were making an effort to get back in the HZ. A small corner of our ramps went outside the HZ a couple times without penalties. One time we forgot to put our arm down and after resting it on top of the alliance station wall and not taking corrective action fast enough we were penalized and I believe we were also disabled. The refs seemed to want to let the teams play by not calling penalties that did not harm other robots or have a huge affect on the game. A real common sense approach that was very much appreciated. Total deployment of ramps in the middle of the field, penalty every time. A couple inches out while trying to allign the ramps in the HZ during the end game and making sure that at the end you are completely within the HZ, no penalty.
As one of the refs at boilermaker, I thank you for your compliments.

During our training, the Head Ref briefed us on the rules. When we got to the home zone rules, staying within the alliance zone, breaking the driver station plane, and 72"x72" rules, he didn't want us to flag a robot or human player for the smallest infractions. If you're clearly out of the home zone / alliance zone or over the driver station, we called it. If you were really close (<1 inch) to breaking the home zone, driver station, or 72"x72" rule, we gave you the benefit of the doubt on the first offense, but warned you to be careful and probably penalized you the next time it happened.
Now, if your robot deployed the ramps because of a hit from another robot or somehow pulled them out because of entanglement with the rack, we didn't penalize you IF you made an effort to get into your home zone.
As for other penalties, specifically the rough play and yellow cards, I received plenty of complaints about it, but that's a completely different subject.

As for the other regionals, it stinks that it can't be consistent across the board, but each head ref has a different interpretation of the rules. As a former driver, I'd advise the drivers/operators to ask the refs and make sure you get a clear definition and understanding of how they're going to call the penalties and follow them. Also, remember that just because the last regional's refs called the game one way doesn't mean the refs at your next regional or even the Championships are going to call it the same way.
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Unread 20-03-2007, 12:23
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
Except for accidental deployments, we had it happen both in St Louis and at Boilermaker and each time the ref didn't penalize us because we went straight into the home zone and it didn't affect the match at all.

It's a different story if you intentionally deploy and come out of the zone.
At the St. Louis Regional I thought that we called all of the bots exceeding 72" outside of the home zone, but evidently we missed at least one (I was one of the refs). The way it was called in St. Louis was if you exceeded the 72" outside of the home zone you were accessed a 10 pt penalty and were asked by the referees to try to get back to your home zone. After the regional was over, we discovered that asking them to return to the home zone was needed. There weren't any matches where we felt that a robot great than 72" had a drastic impact on the outcome of the game so it wasn't disabled/DQed.

At the GLR robotics weren't called for being greater than the 72" outside of the home zone as Karthik pointed out.

At the Detroit Regional referees seemed to make the right calls for robots being greater than 72" outside of the home zone and for robotics being greater than 72" that went in and out of the home zone repeatedly.

Has there been any regionals where robots have been disabled/DQed for being outside of the 72" while outside of the home zone during a match? Either because the referees thought that was still the rule as it was originally or because they thought that it provided an unfair advantage by being greater than the 72", instead of just the 10 pt penalty.
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Unread 20-03-2007, 13:22
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Re: Ramps extending outside of the home zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Garver View Post
At the St. Louis Regional I thought that we called all of the bots exceeding 72" outside of the home zone, but evidently we missed at least one (I was one of the refs). The way it was called in St. Louis was if you exceeded the 72" outside of the home zone you were accessed a 10 pt penalty and were asked by the referees to try to get back to your home zone. After the regional was over, we discovered that asking them to return to the home zone was needed. There weren't any matches where we felt that a robot great than 72" had a drastic impact on the outcome of the game so it wasn't disabled/DQed.
You can see it in the video. Our drivers forgot to reset the switch for the ramp deployment and it came out when we were playing defense. We then went straight into the home zone. I thought for sure we would be penalized but we weren't. I had my driver ask the ref why and he said it was because the deployment happened after we were hit and because we went straight into the zone.
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