Bad News for teams on Waiting List

[rsilverstein]

At each regional there should be an award (like the judges award) called: you didn't win, and you don't necessarily have the best "program", but you have a GREAT robot that deserves to go to the Championship.
Maybe make it an optional award, but, for example, team 968 didn't qualify for Atlanta, but they have an amazing robot that the whole country/world should be exposed to. Robots like that should be able to go.

yes, I know, 968 and 254 are the same robot, but you get the idea.

[efoote868]

Well, I was disappointed when I saw this. I know that this year our robot would contend for nats more than ever, and we were something like 40th on the wait list. Looks like we'll just have to rock next year

IRI, here we come.

[dangerousdave]

I will stay on topic here. As Amy Prib said earlier in this thread "There's a nice long thread with previous discussions about where people think Championships should go after Atlanta contract is up…" It is disappointing to everyone especially the teams involved, that every team that wants to go to the Championship event can not. Our team has been fortunate and honored to qualify for Championship's since 2004.

As Connor Ryan said "The Georgia Dome itself cannot fit another field without closing the FVC or FLL tournament (remember its the FIRST Championships, not the FRC Championships)." Atlanta could handle more pit space in the GWCC buildings B & A.

If it is a competition space issue then I am not sure that any other domed stadium in the USA has a significantly higher amount of floor space than the GA Dome. The RCA Dome in Indianapolis has about 7,000 less square feet on the floor than the GA Dome. Perhaps the new stadium will have larger floor space. The Edward Jones dome in St. Louis may have more floor space.

The domes are built primarily to house a football field in. The new Univ. of Phoenix Stadium has a retractable side and field but I don't think there is a convention center next to it that could house the pits. Of course the competition could be moved outside of the USA but not likely anytime soon.

IndySam mentioned that Atlanta has Coke as a sugar daddy. I think that 2006 was the first year that Coke was a First sponsor and the event has been in Atlanta since 2004. I am not sure how much of an effect Coke has had.

Again, it is sad that all can not attend but I THINK that if you must be in a domed stadium then most of them have about the same floor size. Then you have to compare other things like hotels, transportation into and around the city, restaurants etc.

We local Atlanta people are of course extremely happy to have the event close by making travel much easier. However, when a site that is better suited for the Championship's is found we will be there!

Dave

[Donut]

Originally Posted by dangerousdave

The domes are built primarily to house a football field in. The new Univ. of Phoenix Stadium has a retractable side and field but I don't think there is a convention center next to it that could house the pits. Of course the competition could be moved outside of the USA but not likely anytime soon.

Since we bring up Phoenix, I thought I'd clarify that we do have the Phoenix Coyotes Arena sharing the same parking lot, and they're currently finding stores to add to the mall there. However there still aren't alot of hotels withint walking distance, and the public transportation system here is less than stellar (a light rail system will eventually go from the airport to the stadium, but not until 2016). Anyway, enough of that.

I'm surprised to see how many teams are at the Championships this year (376 pit spaces). I remember in 2004 when there were just 75 or 80 per division, and now we'll be up to 94 per division.

It will be interesting to watch the Championship over the next few years; if FIRST continues its trend of growing at rapid paces (300+ new teams a year) while retaining over 90% of veteran teams, the Championship process is going to have to adapt very quickly to a new system.

[David Brinza]

Yes, FIRST with >4,000 teams (a number WAY less than Dean's goal ) will be a very different animal.

The number of regional events will grow, team waiting lists for popular regionals will grow, the qualification criteria for going the Championships will get tougher (it wasn't long ago that design awards qualified a team for the Championship). I suspect many, many, more teams will never see the Championship venue. You cannot arbitrarily grow the size of the Championship: the event becomes unwieldy and even unnattractive to teams (imagine only playing four or five qualifying matches with only 1 out of 6 or 7 teams moving into the elimination rounds).

Maybe FIRST will create Divisions or Classes to separate the large, powerhouse, veteran teams from the rookies, or smaller teams with limited resources. Perhaps "Super Regional Tournaments" (North, South, East, West?) will be held on the road to a Final Championship. That can add another two weeks or so to the competition season.

Indeed, it will be interesting to watch FIRST grow. As FIRST participants, we need to make sure that in a few years we don't look back and think of these as "the good ol' days of FIRST".

Our ideas and opinions can strongly influence the direction of FIRST, if you see a way something that can be done better: speak up!

[GaryVoshol]

//snipped//

Originally Posted by David Brinza

Yes, FIRST with >4,000 teams (a number WAY less than Dean's goal ) will be a very different animal.

The number of regional events will grow, team waiting lists for popular regionals will grow, the qualification criteria for going the Championships will get tougher

Maybe FIRST will create Divisions or Classes

Perhaps "Super Regional Tournaments" (North, South, East, West?) will be held on the road to a Final Championship. That can add another two weeks or so to the competition season.

FIRST already has a model for that - FLL. It's different, because there are no alliances on the field. But a parallel structure could be created.

In Michigan this year there were about 400 FLL teams. They competed in 14 regionals. 1/4 of the teams at each regional advanced to the State Tournamants (we had 2 this year; in effect Michigan is now 2 FLL states, SE Mich and N&W Mich.) One Champion winner was selected at both State Tournaments - the rough equivalent of Chairmans, but it involves game play, technical awards, research and community outreach. These Champions, plus those from other states and countries, were invited to the World Festival in Atlanta.

That model will probably have to be translated to FVC in a year or two.

Once the number of FRC regional winners exceeds the number of spaces available for the Championship, FRC will have to come up with a multi-tiered qualification scheme. Maybe 4 weeks of qualifying regionals, winners (more than just 6, criteria TBD) would advance to 2 weeks of super-regionals. Winners from those super-regionals would advance to the Championships. It would extend the competition season from the current 7-8 weeks to 10 or 11 weeks. It could create more travel costs.

The first step might be to limit teams to entering only one regional.

Yes, an expanded FIRST will look far different than it does today.

[efoote868]

Indy is making a bid for the super bowl (where the standards are extremely high), so there will probably be more than adequate hotel and accommodations.

Also, it will be connected with the convention center (i think underground tunnel, but i'm not sure exactly), so if that is used for pits, it would make a pretty sweet setup. I guess the only thing that bums me out is that if not next year, then i'll have graduated.

[Jeff Pahl]

Originally Posted by efoote868

I guess the only thing that bums me out is that if not next year, then i'll have graduated.

Sorry to bum you out, but the 2008 event is already on the Ga Dome calendar.

I live in Atlanta, and it's nice having it here, but I'd be happy to see it go to Indy after the contract is up here. Indy is a nice place, and it's time to move the event around again.

As others have noted, the limiting factor at any venue is field space. There is only so much room on a football field. As far as pit space goes, FIRST only uses one hall of the four available at the GWCC. The only way to get more field space is to move the fields out of a football stadium and into the convention center halls with the pits. This would allow more fields (and therefore more teams), but would take away the excitement of being in the big stadium. This would also open up the options to a lot more cities, as it would no longer be necessary to have a convention center adjacent to a stadium.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Before we all hop on board this Indy bandwagon, lets check the weather forecast for Indy during championships.


(2 weeks later): Probably not a good idea to go to Indy after all, if were all talking about how unusually cold it is at the social on Saturday night

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by FreedomForce

Before we all hop on board this Indy bandwagon, lets check the weather forecast for Indy during championships.


(2 weeks later): Probably not a good idea to go to Indy after all, if were all talking about how unusually cold it is at the social on Saturday night

Are you kidding me? The weather in Indy during April is usually beautiful, not too warm and not too cold. Assuming it doesn't change ten times within the week that is.

[EricRobodox]

Well, considering i live in Los Angeles, why not Los Angeles. What would be awesome is Staple Center as the pits, which would be insanely awesome to be on the same floor that the Lakers play on (im a huge LA sports fan) for the pits, which is big enough, let alone a lot of rooms to house separately FVC and FLL if need be, but i doubt it, its pretty big. Then the Convention Center next door has 2700000sqft!!!!! Well, some sites say more and some say less, but definetely more space than Georgia Dome and Indianapolis. Its all inside, and the weather is great. Plus, with the new Downtown Center being built right next door, there will be plenty of things to do in walking distance. By the way, Convention Center and Staple Center are technically the same building, they are connected. A shorter walking distance from the pits to the fields.

Anyways, its just my 2cents, I would love to see Championships be moved to West Coast for a year or so, for traveling reasons and because i think people may enjoy it more from our awesome weather, cool places to go, and the Pacific Ocean. lol.

[dangerousdave]

Originally Posted by EricRobodox

What would be awesome is Staple Center as the pits, which would be insanely awesome to be on the same floor that the Lakers play on (im a huge LA sports fan) for the pits, which is big enough, let alone a lot of rooms to house separately FVC and FLL if need be, but i doubt it, its pretty big. Then the Convention Center next door has 2700000sqft!!!!! Well, some sites say more and some say less, but definetely more space than Georgia Dome and Indianapolis.
Anyways, its just my 2cents, I would love to see Championships be moved to West Coast for a year or so, for traveling reasons and because i think people may enjoy it more from our awesome weather, cool places to go, and the Pacific Ocean. lol.

I want to stay on topic here so here goes.
Please correct me if I am wrong but Staples Center floor is a basketball and hockey arena. How are you going to fit more than maybe one pit division of four on it? I know nothing about the new convention center but if it is typical, where are the sitting stands going to be for each division?
I don't think this setup you propose will allow more teams to attend. You may want to make your comments in the thread that Amy mentioned earlier. I am sure that most people including me would love to come to the west coast.
Dave

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by EricRobodox

Well, considering i live in Los Angeles, why not Los Angeles. What would be awesome is Staple Center as the pits, which would be insanely awesome to be on the same floor that the Lakers play on (im a huge LA sports fan) for the pits, which is big enough, let alone a lot of rooms to house separately FVC and FLL if need be, but i doubt it, its pretty big. Then the Convention Center next door has 2700000sqft!!!!! Well, some sites say more and some say less, but definetely more space than Georgia Dome and Indianapolis. Its all inside, and the weather is great. Plus, with the new Downtown Center being built right next door, there will be plenty of things to do in walking distance. By the way, Convention Center and Staple Center are technically the same building, they are connected. A shorter walking distance from the pits to the fields.

Anyways, its just my 2cents, I would love to see Championships be moved to West Coast for a year or so, for traveling reasons and because i think people may enjoy it more from our awesome weather, cool places to go, and the Pacific Ocean. lol.

If the LA Convention Center could be configured to have a four fields with each with stands to seat 5,000 and an Einstein field with stands to seat 20,000 then you might be able to do this. You probably could have the pits in the Convention Center as well (why use Staples for pits?). But the max ceiling height in the convention center is 40' - not high enough to put stands in with that sort of seating capacity.

The FIRST Championship event (in its present state) can ONLY be done at a venue like a domed football stadium (accommodates >5 fields and spectator seating) with an adjacent convention center for the pits. There are only a handful of these venues in the entire US: Georgia Dome, RCA Dome (or it's successor in Indy), Edwards Dome (St. Louis), Reliant Stadium (remember the hike from the Houston Astrodome to the fields?), and maybe a couple of others. Phoenix University stadium is possibly the only venue in the Western US that could accommodate the championship - and it's not clear that adequate pit space is available close enough to the floor of the stadium to make it a viable choice.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by dangerousdave

The RCA Dome in Indianapolis has about 7,000 less square feet on the floor than the GA Dome.

Found in this PDF file, the new one in Indianapolis will provide nearly 135,000 square feet of space, and will have a retractable roof.

[dangerousdave]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

Found in this PDF file, the new one in Indianapolis will provide nearly 135,000 square feet of space, and will have a retractable roof.

I assume that you are talking about floor space between the seating areas for the competition fields. If so, then I believe that is about 33,000 more sq. ft. than the GA Dome. If there will be a good place close by for the pits, enough hotel rooms and adequate transportation and restaurants we may be heading to IN.
Dave