Picking alliances

[geowasp]

Ok, so team 1552 did not get selected into eliminations, either
a) they were not a good robot
b) they are ranked 40 out of 45
c) they are a good robot, but failed to exemplify their abilities in the round robin rounds, for whatever reason (new non-random alliance partner selections, etc. )

should they have attempted to "sell" themselves to the higher seeds, if they think the rankings do not reflect their actual ability, or should they simply wait and see, hoping that scouting by other teams would've noticed them? Does it seem desperate if a lowly ranked team attempts to make a final effort to convince potential alliance captains to pick them? In ideal conditions, rankings should reflect a team's ability, but we all know in around 10 matches, some unexpected teams can happen, and a good robot worthy of going into eliminations can easily end up with a losing record, and in the bottom of the rankings. So, my question to the FIRST community out there is: what would you do to get your team into eliminations if you know your team has a great robot, but your rankings are absolutely abyssmal come alliance selections?

[jgannon]

If other teams have good scouts, qualifying rank means nothing. Good scouts will find good teams, regardless of rank. There are plenty of stories around here of teams who finished dead last and still got picked for elims (most recently, team 4 won LA after seeding last). On the other hand, my team finished in the top 20 at both events we entered this year, and still didn't get picked. There's nothing wrong with selling yourself to other teams, particularly teams that you played well with during qualifying. Scouts do sometimes miss good teams, and it never hurts to give them a little reminder. In any case, don't beat yourself up over it. Only 24 teams get to play in elims. Sometimes you're in the 24, and sometimes you aren't.

[theycallhimtom]

From being seeded 2nd at two regionals this year I got to experience what it was like when a lower team tried to sell themselves to us. We have a very strong group of scouts so we have are own rankings which we use. Whenever a team tried to sell themselves to us it really did not impact what we were doing at all. But our rookie year we were ranked 10th or so and got to captain the 7th or 8th alliance and since we were not expecting it we had no scouting data. In that case teams lobbying us made a huge impact.

In essence if the team has a good scouting team you are already being considered so there is not much you can do. If the team is not scouting a lot then making a pitch to them can help you a ton. At the very least pitching to a higher team with scouts will not make them rank you lower.

If you are going to make the pitch there are a few things you should make sure to do.
1) Sometimes their are reasons why robots are ranked low, explain them. For example if you had to play a good team every match (1st week regionals) or if your robot broke for two matches. If your ranked 40th because something broken on Thursday morning and you did well in your last 5 matches then teams will be more likely to pick you.
2) Wait until the qualification matches are done or at least the team you are pitching to is done with their matches. If you talk to them before they finish they will be focusing on their matches.
3) Focus on your strengths. Simple things such as showing up to every qualification match with a working robot can help you a lot.
4) Keep it short and to the point.


One thing to note. This is just my view of what would convince my team to pick you, and other teams might be very different.

[Vogel648]

Yes, we got picked by the first seeded aliance first in the Midwest Regional, dispite being fairly mid to low in qualifying.

[efoote868]

I would recommend it, especially if you think the efforts will pay off.

At BMR, we were one of the better robots. Many different teams came up to us, it really did make us reconsider our alliance.

At St. Louis, however, we didn't do so well, even though near the end, our robot was well tuned, and running as good as ever. We didn't sell ourselves to teams, even though we thought we'd be better than some of their picks.

Besides, whats the worst that could happen?

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Chances are, if you are deserving of being selected for eliminations, one of the eight alliances will pick you. For example, last year 648 was almost last at West Michigan but we ended up being the final pick of the 1st seeded alliance and last overall. It's not really about selling yourself, but making impressions.

[Billfred]

I wholeheartedly agree--a little bit of salesmanship never hurt at all. None of my teams, past or present, had ever made it to eliminations before today at Palmetto, let alone been the alliance captain. If nearly any team had found me and spoke about their robot in a convincing manner, there's a reasonable chance they'd have swayed my attitude towards them, making their way into the consideration set.

(A particularly skilled marketer who figured me out might try partial cue listing, where they'd list only a few parts of a whole list, which then inhibits my memory of the other members of the list. Go ahead, name toothpastes in your head past Crest, Colgate, and Aim without Googling--a group of five college students I was with couldn't get past three more. Consumer Behavior finally pays off!)

Of course, our scouting system was only my gut instinct--next year, we're coming prepared.

[smurfgirl]

From personal experience, I can see it working either way:

Last year at the UTC New England Regional, our robot was ranked 40 out of 40 in the second to last qualifying match, (though our win in the our last qualifying match brought us up to 34/40). Our ranking didn't really justify the capabilities of our robot though; we lost a lot of matches due to alliance partners not showing up (this led to a 1 on 3 situation because of backbots) or because of alliance partners who didn't function properly. We made sure to let other teams know this... if we hadn't, we probably wouldn't have been picked by 177 and 176... and we wouldn't have won the Regional. So selling yourself to other teams could work out for the better.

This year at the UTC Connecticut Regional, we ranked 8 of 49, so we were alliance captains (for the first time ever!). We had already established a positive relationship with team 195 (from working with and against them inprevious matches), which, combined with our robot's good performance is probably why they (the 6th ranked team) chose us. Together we decided on 558 as our third alliance partner, not because 558 had come up to us and told us how great they were, but because we (and our team's scouters) had noted that they were a great robot with amazing defense and a good ramp. So sometimes you don't need to sell yourself to get noticed.

At least, that's the way I see it.

[sanddrag]

Over the years, I've gotten tired of teams selling themselves to me. It is all exagerated and glorified, every time. But I do think a bit of honest salesmanship is a good thing. A lot of teams really haven't a clue when it comes time to pick.

[EricH]

"Schmoozing" (selling yourself to anybody in the top 8) can pay off. However, bad times to do this are: a) they are swarming their robot like crazy, b) they are about to play a match, or c) when the judges or a bunch of other teams are there. Start on Friday and step it up as you get closer. Don't be too agressive about it though; that gets the "pushy salesman" reaction. (On the other hand, don't ignore the top 8. That could be suicide.)

By the way, reason d) that this team didn't get picked is: they didn't draw the attention of enough scouts. Reason e) is: alliance strategy may not have had a place for the robot type. (eg. a ringer robot when the next few picks want a ramp bot) I say, let it fly, sell yourself next time around, and hope it works. (Giveaways help too.)

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by EricH

"Schmoozing" (selling yourself to anybody in the top 8) can pay off. However, bad times to do this are: a) they are swarming their robot like crazy, b) they are about to play a match, or c) when the judges or a bunch of other teams are there. Start on Friday and step it up as you get closer. Don't be too agressive about it though; that gets the "pushy salesman" reaction. (On the other hand, don't ignore the top 8. That could be suicide.)

By the way, reason d) that this team didn't get picked is: they didn't draw the attention of enough scouts. Reason e) is: alliance strategy may not have had a place for the robot type. (eg. a ringer robot when the next few picks want a ramp bot) I say, let it fly, sell yourself next time around, and hope it works. (Giveaways help too.)

Schmoozing isn't only done by teams out of the top eight seeds, there is a lot of "testing the waters" within that group as well. Teams discussing possible matchups with each other and striking deals for end game strategies.

For teams that have significant scouting, you cannot wait until the competition is over to begin talking with them. They have collected all the data, and have taken notes about the decisions made by your competition team. You need to catch them early on Saturday morning, and give them some time to focus on your robot during its matches. Many robots improve from Friday to Saturday, and some begin having more difficulties. Scouts are familiar with these trends, so give them time to re-evaluate your robot during the Saturday morning matches.

[newton418]

At Lone Star a couple teams came by our pit and talked to me, asking me to keep them in mind. I had no problem with this, but they were talking to the wrong person! As the driver and part of the pit crew, I had very little time to look at other robots, especially if they weren't allied with us, or they didn't really stand out. When our team met to make a list of potential alliance partners I was primarily there to keep things moving.
So, I don't know about other teams, but talking to our pit crew is a lost cause since we are the people on the team contributing the least to the alliance selection decisions.
However, the information flyers did come in handy on multiple occasions, especially the ones with detailed pictures, since our scouting pictures only got robots from one angle.

[Raul]

We create a ranking list on Friday night and come prepared to tweak it on Saturday morning. We use the last matches on Saturday to see if our ranking may need adjusting.

The issue with schmoozing is that all the talk in the world does not help if you cannot prove it on the field. My advice to teams is to:
1) Approach teams that you wish would consider you as a partner either after all matches are done on Friday or early on Saturday morning before your first match that day. Explain to them your strengths and ask them to watch you perform in your next match and give them your match number. This makes #2 below important:
2) Do not try to show off your abilities at the cost of causing your alliance to lose. Some rookie teams (and some veterans) do not follow or agree to do the best strategy because they want to do their own thing to show off. You must get agreement from your alliance that the role you will play (ramp, score, defense) is what is going to contribute the most to the alliance.

Raul

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by Raul

We create a ranking list on Friday night and come prepared to tweak it on Saturday morning. We use the last matches on Saturday to see if our ranking may need adjusting.

The issue with schmoozing is that all the talk in the world does not help if you cannot prove it on the field. My advice to teams is to:
1) Approach teams that you wish would consider you as a partner either after all matches are done on Friday or early on Saturday morning before your first match that day. Explain to them your strengths and ask them to watch you perform in your next match and give them your match number. This makes #2 below important:
2) Do not try to show off your abilities at the cost of causing your alliance to lose. Some rookie teams (and some veterans) do not follow or agree to do the best strategy because they want to do their own thing to show off. You must get agreement from your alliance that the role you will play (ramp, score, defense) is what is going to contribute the most to the alliance.

Raul

If I were you, I'd pay close attention to Raul's post. Selling your team is a good idea if you do it the right way. And if you try to sell your team by claiming things your robot/team cannot do, most powerhouse teams will find out through their scouting data and it will only lower your teams worth in their opinion. It is important to sell what you have done right in the past rounds so you have a prove record. Honesty is highly valued among teams who are usually in the top 8.

[Mr. Freeman]

I don't think informing the top teams of your robot's ability is a bad thing. It might sound "desperate", but if you do it right it might actually be really helpful.
At the Colorado regional there was some team (sorry, forgot the number) that made a really helpful scouting booklet of all the teams at the regional.
During the alliance selections, alliances 1-8 picked pretty quickly, they knew who they wanted to choose. But alliance 8 took a really long time to make their second choice, and I saw almost every single other alliance on the field flipping through that scouting manual like crazy while teams 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, made their decision.
I think some of the selection decisions were rushed simply because the alliances weren't aware of which teams were both A) not already picked, and B) preformed well but were ranked low enough that no one really noticed them (from what I've heard, this seems to be fairly common).
Talking to the high ranked teams could, if nothing else, give them a team to pick if their first few choices are taken by other the alliances.