Rough Play in Rack N Roll

[Stephen Kowski]

I have to say im surprised how rough it got. We had defense played on us in peachtree, but in palmetto it was absolutely brutal. I think some teams can back me up on this (1251, 343, etc) but overall I was really surprised the beating we took at this regional. I'm not really looking forward to the Championship if the beating is going to be anything similar.

I mean it was so bad in practice matches thursday, not a game, not a game, we're talking about practice here we were triple, I'll repeat TRIPLE, defended when it was 2 vs 3.

[pakratt1991]

I was suprised at how few yellow cards were actually given,
the only reason one was given at Davis was after a robot tipped 2 on our alliance. Then the next match they started doing it again and then they were given the yellow card. NOT when they tipped two of our robots... it's not like we are prone to tipping, neiter of the teams that were on their side had EVER been their before.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by pakratt1991

... it's not like we are prone to tipping, neiter of the teams that were on their side had EVER been their before.

I guess you just have never been to Davis before last year our bot was on it's side many times...so this year we built a mostly untippable robot.

I just watched the QF 1-1 match, where you and 100 both were tipped. It looks to me like both of those robots are indeed prone to tipping. They have relatively narrow, short drive bases, and wheels/treads that are not very stable. Plus 997 is sort of top heavy, even though your ramp material is light weight, there is a lot of it, and it extends up pretty far when the ramps are not deployed.

Thanks again to you, 100, and 1458 for the most exciting QF series we've ever seen! Team 1726 wishes you all the best in Atlanta...

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

I mean it was so bad in practice matches thursday, not a game, not a game, we're talking about practice here we were triple, I'll repeat TRIPLE, defended when it was 2 vs 3.

Not knowing how appropriate or excessive the defense was, keep in mind that defensive teams have a right to practice their methods on Thursday as much as the scoring teams do. One would hope opposing alliances would cooperate to let all teams involved practice what they want to practice during Thursday matches without causing any robot damage.

48 and 1114's spirited practice match on Thursday at Greater Toronto is one example. We defend them "vigorously" in the first session, then we back off in the second session, let them score, then let them deploy their ramp in our home zone, and finally climb them so they can check on a new ramp feature. This is how the Thursday matches should be - have all six teams strategize together for maximum mutual benefit.

[Jared Russell]

Yesterday at the Philly Regional we saw a RED CARD! And it came without a yellow card preceding it.

Our robot had tipped, and another team gave it a bit of a (hard) shove. Was it intentional? I really don't think so. Needless to say, we were shocked at the result.

Luckily the red card didn't change the result of the match (which was in the semi-finals), but if it had (or if it had eliminated the alliance from the competition) I would have been really upset.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

I mean it was so bad in practice matches thursday, not a game, not a game, we're talking about practice here we were triple, I'll repeat TRIPLE, defended when it was 2 vs 3.

I said this last year, and I'll say it again this year. During practice, if teams defend you, thank them. For they are showing you exactly what you will see on the field during the real game.

Imagine if they didn't defend you during practice and you thought you could put 6 ringers on and once you got to the real game and they did defend and you found out that under real defense you could only score 1. Wouldn't you want to know this BEFORE the real matches started?

JMHO

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

I said this last year, and I'll say it again this year. During practice, if teams defend you, thank them. For they are showing you exactly what you will see on the field during the real game.

Imagine if they didn't defend you during practice and you thought you could put 6 ringers on and once you got to the real game and they did defend and you found out that under real defense you could only score 1. Wouldn't you want to know this BEFORE the real matches started?

JMHO

I knew how many I could put on with defense when we won peachtree two weeks earlier.....to defend my team heavily for two straight sessions and then one of the teams backing off only to make room so they can ramp up to ram us at high speed on thursday when they can't be penalized for it.....i won't thank them for it....to come across the field around the rack to ram us at high speed.....i won't thank them.....i don't appreciate other teams doing things against the rules on thursday because they can....

[Kelly]

I noticed that the refs were even less likely to issue penalties during the tournament. During our last semi-final match one of our opponents was ramming us so hard their robot wound up on top of ours and the ref didn't penalize them.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

I knew how many I could put on with defense when we won peachtree two weeks earlier.....to defend my team heavily for two straight sessions and then one of the teams backing off only to make room so they can ramp up to ram us at high speed on thursday when they can't be penalized for it.....i won't thank them for it....to come across the field around the rack to ram us at high speed.....i won't thank them.....i don't appreciate other teams doing things against the rules on thursday because they can....

I cannot comment on any particular hit, but I've found that most hits that happen in practice, also happen in compitition. I've also found that since the bumper rules were in force (since last year) the referees are allowing much more physical contact between the robots (which I think make for a better game ... from a publics viewpoint).

I've also found that the definition of "high-speed" ramming is different from referee to referee.

My suggestion is to expect High-speed rams (your definition) to happen and just accept it. Complaining about it (either during compitition or in practice) does little good. The referees have a feel for what they consider a high-speed ram, and they will enforce the rule to that 'feel'.

I'll tell you now, my team has a defensive ramp-robot. As such, a bit of hard hitting (not ramming from the other side of the field) should be, and is, expected. I've asked my driver to hit the corners of the opposing robots so as to spin them. I have tried ro emphisize that we do not want to hurt the other robot, just not allow an easy shot at the rack.

You may consider defense unfair because it does not allow you to score. We consider each score that you cannot make a score for us. And we need to practice that defense as much as you need to practice your offense.

I am sorry that you feel that the defense played against your robot was too much. I agree that referees should be there during practice matches, so that teams get the idea of what is a penalty and what is not. But I completely disagree with you that defensive robots should just avoid you because you are having a hard time scoring during practice, and I think you should consider it a prelude to what you will see on the field.

Again, the above is JMHO

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

I've also found that the definition of "high-speed" ramming is different from referee to referee.

My suggestion is to expect High-speed rams (your definition) to happen and just accept it. Complaining about it (either during compitition or in practice) does little good. The referees have a feel for what they consider a high-speed ram, and they will enforce the rule to that 'feel'.

Well since you weren't there from what I gather and probably do not know what happened I will assume that you do not know that the referees DID talk with the team after the match because THEY felt it was unnecessary. I find my 'feel' is pretty accurate since I have been a referee and know how they call it.

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

You may consider defense unfair because it does not allow you to score.

I may, I may not, since I never discussed the fairness I guess you don't really know. Like I said I was surprised.....that was my comment, please don't respond to things you are inferring in my posts.

[Otaku]

Out of the two regionals I went to (and being on a team that played really rough), I've only seen one yellow flag, and that was at UC Davis in the Elimination rounds.

I mean, my team pushed 1280 into the rack then kept pushing (and turned the rack) at SVR and never got penalized.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

Well since you weren't there from what I gather and probably do not know what happened I will assume that you do not know that the referees DID talk with the team after the match because THEY felt it was unnecessary. I find my 'feel' is pretty accurate since I have been a referee and know how they call it.

As I saud, I didn't see the particular hit that you are discussing. I have seen many full field rams (especially last year) that were not called, and a number of ticky-tack hits that were called. I refuse to make this a bash the ref's because they have a very tough job and they will call it as they see. It's part of the game, and you need to move on.

I will also state that the agressive play has not always been on the defensive side this year. We have been rammed into the rack many times while trying to defend the rack from an agressive offensive robot.

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

I may, I may not, since I never discussed the fairness I guess you don't really know. Like I said I was surprised.....that was my comment, please don't respond to things you are inferring in my posts.

I will agree that I've seen some hits that I have been surprised that fouls / flags were not given. That being said I believe the referees are doing a great job balancing the fouls given with 'letting them play'.

Unfortunately, every once in a while, an uncalled for hit will not get penalized. The ref's are human. It is my hope that those that did it come over afterwards and make sure your robot is all right (I know we've done gone over to make sure they were still alright when during the pushing match someone got caught up in the rack).

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

I said this last year, and I'll say it again this year. During practice, if teams defend you, thank them. For they are showing you exactly what you will see on the field during the real game.

Particularly if they ask you first. During L.A. practice, we had a round against 188. Before the first of the two matches, they came over and asked if we would mind if they played defense on us. We said to go for it. I think both teams had fun that round, with us trying to score and 188 playing defense--it was just about as good as a real match for both teams.

Defenders, if you want to practice your defense on Thursday, it would help to ask first so the team(s) you want to practice on can tell you whether or not they want defense. (It also removes nasty surprises--they're ready, so they can protect vital parts of their robot.)

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by EricH

Defenders, if you want to practice your defense on Thursday, it would help to ask first so the team(s) you want to practice on can tell you whether or not they want defense. (It also removes nasty surprises--they're ready, so they can protect vital parts of their robot.)

Agreed, but it should not be limited to defenders. You should always talk to the other teams out there during practice. Tell them what you plan on doing, and what you are expecting.

You'll find that most teams are willing to accomodate.

[efoote868]

At BMR we had 2 incidents where we were tipped over. The first time was a shear accident, where we backed up, and went forward, causing our robot to tip a bit... when an opposing robot contacted us underneath our kicker wheel. The result was that we immediately tipped over. During that match, we didn't have our wheelie wheels on our robot; the situation was purely accidental.

That team received a yellow card , and after reviewing the tapes, my team came with the general consensus that the team didn't deserve it at all.

The second occasion, we had our wheelie wheels on, and as we were trying to score, a team hit us, knocking us backwards, over our wheelie wheels, and sticking us in a position at a severe angle to the ground. We wouldn't have gone all the way over, except for the fact that the other team spent at least 30 seconds, repeatedly backing up and hitting us. It wasn't until they pushed a significant amount that we toppled. They didn't receive any penalties for their actions.

The refs explained that we were "in a position to score", even though we pretty much disabled at that point, and could in no way score. It was pretty disappointing.