Rough Play in Rack N Roll

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

I knew how many I could put on with defense when we won peachtree two weeks earlier.....to defend my team heavily for two straight sessions and then one of the teams backing off only to make room so they can ramp up to ram us at high speed on thursday when they can't be penalized for it.....i won't thank them for it....to come across the field around the rack to ram us at high speed.....i won't thank them.....i don't appreciate other teams doing things against the rules on thursday because they can....

I cannot comment on any particular hit, but I've found that most hits that happen in practice, also happen in compitition. I've also found that since the bumper rules were in force (since last year) the referees are allowing much more physical contact between the robots (which I think make for a better game ... from a publics viewpoint).

I've also found that the definition of "high-speed" ramming is different from referee to referee.

My suggestion is to expect High-speed rams (your definition) to happen and just accept it. Complaining about it (either during compitition or in practice) does little good. The referees have a feel for what they consider a high-speed ram, and they will enforce the rule to that 'feel'.

I'll tell you now, my team has a defensive ramp-robot. As such, a bit of hard hitting (not ramming from the other side of the field) should be, and is, expected. I've asked my driver to hit the corners of the opposing robots so as to spin them. I have tried ro emphisize that we do not want to hurt the other robot, just not allow an easy shot at the rack.

You may consider defense unfair because it does not allow you to score. We consider each score that you cannot make a score for us. And we need to practice that defense as much as you need to practice your offense.

I am sorry that you feel that the defense played against your robot was too much. I agree that referees should be there during practice matches, so that teams get the idea of what is a penalty and what is not. But I completely disagree with you that defensive robots should just avoid you because you are having a hard time scoring during practice, and I think you should consider it a prelude to what you will see on the field.

Again, the above is JMHO

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

I've also found that the definition of "high-speed" ramming is different from referee to referee.

My suggestion is to expect High-speed rams (your definition) to happen and just accept it. Complaining about it (either during compitition or in practice) does little good. The referees have a feel for what they consider a high-speed ram, and they will enforce the rule to that 'feel'.

Well since you weren't there from what I gather and probably do not know what happened I will assume that you do not know that the referees DID talk with the team after the match because THEY felt it was unnecessary. I find my 'feel' is pretty accurate since I have been a referee and know how they call it.

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

You may consider defense unfair because it does not allow you to score.

I may, I may not, since I never discussed the fairness I guess you don't really know. Like I said I was surprised.....that was my comment, please don't respond to things you are inferring in my posts.

[Otaku]

Out of the two regionals I went to (and being on a team that played really rough), I've only seen one yellow flag, and that was at UC Davis in the Elimination rounds.

I mean, my team pushed 1280 into the rack then kept pushing (and turned the rack) at SVR and never got penalized.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

Well since you weren't there from what I gather and probably do not know what happened I will assume that you do not know that the referees DID talk with the team after the match because THEY felt it was unnecessary. I find my 'feel' is pretty accurate since I have been a referee and know how they call it.

As I saud, I didn't see the particular hit that you are discussing. I have seen many full field rams (especially last year) that were not called, and a number of ticky-tack hits that were called. I refuse to make this a bash the ref's because they have a very tough job and they will call it as they see. It's part of the game, and you need to move on.

I will also state that the agressive play has not always been on the defensive side this year. We have been rammed into the rack many times while trying to defend the rack from an agressive offensive robot.

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

I may, I may not, since I never discussed the fairness I guess you don't really know. Like I said I was surprised.....that was my comment, please don't respond to things you are inferring in my posts.

I will agree that I've seen some hits that I have been surprised that fouls / flags were not given. That being said I believe the referees are doing a great job balancing the fouls given with 'letting them play'.

Unfortunately, every once in a while, an uncalled for hit will not get penalized. The ref's are human. It is my hope that those that did it come over afterwards and make sure your robot is all right (I know we've done gone over to make sure they were still alright when during the pushing match someone got caught up in the rack).

[EmoMike]

During the finals a team (not saying what one) got red carded for intentionally tipping one of out alliance partners.

[Stvn]

I need to find a picture of our bumpers. The fabric is ripped and torn, and the pool tubes look like someone took a bite out of them. And not just a small nibble, either. A full-scale, meal-sized bite.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Stvn

I need to find a picture of our bumpers. The fabric is ripped and torn, and the pool tubes look like someone took a bite out of them. And not just a small nibble, either. A full-scale, meal-sized bite.

At least yours was in 1 piece

We broke our front bumper in half ....... twice.

Neither was the result of a ram, both were done by the force of 2 robots, with high traction, pushing against each other. And it was glorious

[spinmunky]

Originally Posted by Stvn

I need to find a picture of our bumpers. The fabric is ripped and torn, and the pool tubes look like someone took a bite out of them. And not just a small nibble, either. A full-scale, meal-sized bite.

oh the carnage! lol, our bumpers did take quite a beating. the front two and rear bumpers look fine, only our side bumbers were torn. Bots were trying to tip us I think. Cause they found out that if were were hit from the side we wobbled a bit, a couple times they got under us doing that (their bumpers under ours)

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

I said this last year, and I'll say it again this year. During practice, if teams defend you, thank them. For they are showing you exactly what you will see on the field during the real game.

Particularly if they ask you first. During L.A. practice, we had a round against 188. Before the first of the two matches, they came over and asked if we would mind if they played defense on us. We said to go for it. I think both teams had fun that round, with us trying to score and 188 playing defense--it was just about as good as a real match for both teams.

Defenders, if you want to practice your defense on Thursday, it would help to ask first so the team(s) you want to practice on can tell you whether or not they want defense. (It also removes nasty surprises--they're ready, so they can protect vital parts of their robot.)

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by EricH

Defenders, if you want to practice your defense on Thursday, it would help to ask first so the team(s) you want to practice on can tell you whether or not they want defense. (It also removes nasty surprises--they're ready, so they can protect vital parts of their robot.)

Agreed, but it should not be limited to defenders. You should always talk to the other teams out there during practice. Tell them what you plan on doing, and what you are expecting.

You'll find that most teams are willing to accomodate.

[efoote868]

At BMR we had 2 incidents where we were tipped over. The first time was a shear accident, where we backed up, and went forward, causing our robot to tip a bit... when an opposing robot contacted us underneath our kicker wheel. The result was that we immediately tipped over. During that match, we didn't have our wheelie wheels on our robot; the situation was purely accidental.

That team received a yellow card , and after reviewing the tapes, my team came with the general consensus that the team didn't deserve it at all.

The second occasion, we had our wheelie wheels on, and as we were trying to score, a team hit us, knocking us backwards, over our wheelie wheels, and sticking us in a position at a severe angle to the ground. We wouldn't have gone all the way over, except for the fact that the other team spent at least 30 seconds, repeatedly backing up and hitting us. It wasn't until they pushed a significant amount that we toppled. They didn't receive any penalties for their actions.

The refs explained that we were "in a position to score", even though we pretty much disabled at that point, and could in no way score. It was pretty disappointing.

[Jeff Pahl]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Agreed, but it should not be limited to defenders. You should always talk to the other teams out there during practice. Tell them what you plan on doing, and what you are expecting.

You'll find that most teams are willing to accomodate.

I know we frequently do not have the bumpers on the robot during the first few practice matches on Thursday, either because we are trying to get to inspection between matches and need to save time, or because we are using the practice match time to fine tune the operation of our robot. Either way, we'd prefer not to have other people running into us without warning us first.

Also, since we don't own a piece of field carpeting due to financial and space limitations, those first couple of practice matches are very valuable to us in terms of our operators learning how the robot drives differently on the field than it did in the room we practice in at the school. It's really hard to do that while someone is running into you.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by pakratt1991

... it's not like we are prone to tipping, neiter of the teams that were on their side had EVER been their before.

I guess you just have never been to Davis before last year our bot was on it's side many times...so this year we built a mostly untippable robot.

I just watched the QF 1-1 match, where you and 100 both were tipped. It looks to me like both of those robots are indeed prone to tipping. They have relatively narrow, short drive bases, and wheels/treads that are not very stable. Plus 997 is sort of top heavy, even though your ramp material is light weight, there is a lot of it, and it extends up pretty far when the ramps are not deployed.

Thanks again to you, 100, and 1458 for the most exciting QF series we've ever seen! Team 1726 wishes you all the best in Atlanta...

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Jeff Pahl

I know we frequently do not have the bumpers on the robot during the first few practice matches on Thursday, either because we are trying to get to inspection between matches and need to save time, or because we are using the practice match time to fine tune the operation of our robot. Either way, we'd prefer not to have other people running into us without warning us first.

Also, since we don't own a piece of field carpeting due to financial and space limitations, those first couple of practice matches are very valuable to us in terms of our operators learning how the robot drives differently on the field than it did in the room we practice in at the school. It's really hard to do that while someone is running into you.

I'm going to play a little devils' advocate here, because this bothers me a bit.

1> Do you really believe that your parctice time is more valuble then the defensive team across the way?
2> Do you believe that you need to practice driving on the carpet more then they do?
3> Do you believe that they don't need to know how their robot will react when interacting with other robots?

There is a reason it is called a practice MATCH, and not just practice. You should come to the field EXPECTING a MATCH. If your robot is not ready for the field (no bumpers, etc), why would you ask the other team to not practice the strategy that they came with???

I do agree that teams need to talk before practice matches, but that being said i believe it is not fair to ask a team to not practice what they would do in a match just because you are not ready. It's like asking an offensive tubing robot to not touch the rack or a ramp-bot to not deploy it's ramps just because you are not ready for that yet.


Sorry for the rant. The above is JM(NS)HO

[Jeff Pahl]

You missed the important part of my statement: "we'd prefer not to have other people running into us without warning us first."

Practicing defense is fine. However, ramming another robot during a practice match because that's your entire strategy with your "kitbot brick" when they are not expecting it and causing them damage, has made me very unhappy on a Thursday, and made for a long afternoon of repair. The whole point of the post was "ask first". There are two matches each practice round. We are always happy to let someone practice defense on us for one of the two, as long as we are expecting it. But don't pin us into a corner for both matches, we'd like to practice offense for one of them.