pic: We left the boys at home

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

I would really like to know how your team decided to do this. Was it by vote? And what did everyone learn?

Fielding an all female team for one event, because you can and not because you have to, seems to me like a pretty cool thing to do. Can someone from 842 provide an answer to Jane's question?

I can understand the concerns that Jacob has raised in this thread. The answer to Jane's question could help turn the thread back the intended topic and away from gender discrimination.

[JaneYoung]

Well, just thinking about this a little bit -
FIRST is about changing the culture. We've heard that for many years.
To change a culture, one must begin by introducing ideas and concepts into it first. And, to change a culture begins with changing mindsets, one person at a time. Trying different things, different ideas as a team is part of the excitement and adventure, seeing where it leads.

That's just a thought.

Edit: Sorry Richard, you posted and then I did..I can delete this post but I think it is ok, hopefully.

[dlavery]

I had a chance to talk with several of the Team 842 members during the Las Vegas Regional. They told me about some of their experiences and what they learned with their all-female team. I hope someone from 842 posts here, and I won't steal their thunder. But they learned some very interesting and positive lessons with this exercize. I applaud them for being willing to experiment with something different, and seeing if they could learn something new.

-dave

p.s. and on a related topic, the "Digitally Enhanced Scouting System" that they developed absolutely kicks major posterior. I don't usually subscribe to Car-Nack-style predictions, but I am anticipating that over 80% of FRC teams will be using a variant of their system within two years. It is THAT good!

[yodameister]

While I am not from 842 (they did help mentor us though), I understand enough of the dynamics of the team to say they are not really about the winning. They are such a powerhouse here in Arizona in terms of changing the culture. 842 has taken Dean's homework VERY seriously and their outreach is very far reaching. I think that this is one of their ways to get all of the students involved in aspects of robotics that girls typically do not do. I'm sure that a member of 842 will eventually show up to clarify, but I wanted to say they are a classy team and I thank them for helping my team get involved in FIRST!

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by whytheheckme

This is assuming that it would not be *allowed* for girls to do certain jobs on the team. I know that I would be quite angry if I couldn't go to 1/3 events, simply to let someone else have a shot at MY job, just because they are of a different gender.

I hate to be a nuisance, but I really don't like discrimination, as I have been a victim of it in the past, on several accounts.

Jacob

It's not discrimination. It's not like they were forced out of it by the mentors and all of the girls. They agreed to this.

And I'm sure it wasn't a majority vote. I'm sure it was an all or nothing vote. Every boy on the team had to be fine with this. If anyone had a problem with it, they wouldn't go through with it. I would be upset too if I wasn't allowed to go, but we've never met the boys on their team, we don't know what they are like.

Would it be a different story if the title was "We left the girls at home" and it was a picture of all of the boys who went because the girls agreed not to?

[whytheheckme]

Originally Posted by InfernoX14

Would it be a different story if the title was "We left the girls at home" and it was a picture of all of the boys who went because the girls agreed not to?

No, it wouldn't be any different. But I think it would cause a lot more controversy among the forum if this was the title. Even though it would be the same exact thing.

Jacob

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by InfernoX14

Would it be a different story if the title was "We left the girls at home" and it was a picture of all of the boys who went because the girls agreed not to?

We have 8 girls on 418 this year and it has taken this long for us to be able to say, 'we have 8 girls on 418'. It would be neat to develop to the point that the team could make this choice/decision if they wanted to.

On a side note: The last year of the Championship at Disneyworld, our team traveled there and could not afford the room and chaperone for the one girl on our team. We did not decide, it was decided for us - financially. It was difficult.

[cire]

If my team had the opportunity to do something like this, I would be all for it as long as I would be allowed to come and spectate. I spend enough time watching other regionals that my team ISNT going to, I would die if i couldnt see it in action.

[Erin Rapacki]

From my experiences on a co-ed high school team, a mostly-guys college team (at the time), and mentoring an rookie all girls team...

Well, for a girl... participating on an all-girls team is an awesome way to get started in design and technology. When I was younger I found myself a lot less confident in presenting my design ideas because the guys on teams were very pressing and convincing that their ideas would work. I thought my ideas were no good and didn't have the confidence to speak up over a guy who was very passionate about HIS idea. What I know now, and didn't then, was that my ideas were just as good... the guys didn't have more experience than I, they were just more confident sounding.

I had five years of FIRST where I played the 'girl' role, it wasn't a bad thing... but mentoring that all-girls team made me realize design was what I wanted to do. I've only REALLY wanted to do mechanical engineering for the past year or two.

Mentoring 1975 taught me that I enjoy design, I'm passionate about it, and I finally GET IT! It took owning the project and teaching other young ladies about robots, and not having to argue with a bunch of "very convincing" guys, to realize my potential as a design engineer. I had FIVE YEARS of FIRST, and it took me an all-girls team to realize that design and engineering is cool.

So ladies, go enjoy your team. Your minds, your insights, and your future will be much further along. YOU own that project, and once you've gained your confidence... you'll find it easy to collaborate your creative ideas with male engineers.

Just my $.02

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by InfernoX14

It's not discrimination. It's not like they were forced out of it by the mentors and all of the girls. They agreed to this.

And I'm sure it wasn't a majority vote. I'm sure it was an all or nothing vote. Every boy on the team had to be fine with this. If anyone had a problem with it, they wouldn't go through with it. I would be upset too if I wasn't allowed to go, but we've never met the boys on their team, we don't know what they are like.

And you know this how? In the future, it may be a good idea to tread away from arguing a point based on assumption. You know what they say about when you assume.

[N7UJJ]

Love this discussion.

I’m one of the teachers on tam 842 and partially responsible for the “girls only” team.

So, why are there not many girls in robotics and engineering? It's a tough question but the answers are all around us. Pick up a girls magazine and open it up to the science or math or building or any article that is even slightly engineering oriented. The whole magazine is how to attract boys, be Feminine, and all the stereotypical garbage that too many girls believe. Movies, TV, billboards…our whole culture defines what they are to become, and engineering is not presented attractively. Coed schools, without even noticing it, rank girls activates below the male counterpart. At our school, the female basketball team is the Lady Falcons, the boys are the Falcons. hmmm. We are in a Hispanic neighborhood and the feminine expectations are even harsher.

For years we have encouraged, cajoled and bribed girls to build, wire, drive, but most are moved aside sooner or later. "Well, the boys just know what they are doing..." What it really is, is a lack of experience. Most of the girls (and some boys) had never used power tools before.

This year we were fortunate enough to be able to go to three regionals and we will go to the Nationals. That's a lot of time out of school so we decided that we did not have to take the same students every time. That's when we hit on the all girls team. (thus, many girls did not go to the Las Vegas regional). The boys chalked it up to Gracious Professionalism.

So all this season, the females were far more involved in the building, strategy and driving practice, since they knew they had to do it all in San Diego.

And they did.

They even found some problems in our drive train that they fixed. They also discovered a programming bug that prevented our defensive robot from delivering it's max torque. As a result, our robot was in far better shape when delivered to the Las Vegas regional.

Did the boys drive better than the girls? Yes. And the boys had far more experience. but we are a far stronger team now. More importantly, we have more women going into engineering than ever before, even though they know they will have to "buck the system". (pun intended)

There is more. We post it on a [url="http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education/club/club.php?sectionid=3670"]blog

It was a fantastic experiment and the freshman girls took notice. I think we will have more assertive women on the team next year.

Changing the culture.

Allan

[whytheheckme]

Originally Posted by N7UJJ

Love this discussion.
This year we were fortunate enough to be able to go to three regionals and we will go to the Nationals. That's a lot of time out of school so we decided that we did not have to take the same students every time. That's when we hit on the all girls team. (thus, many girls did not go to the Las Vegas regional). The boys chalked it up to Gracious Professionalism.

Thanks for the clarification. I can understand that if you had multiple opportunities to compete, and if all of the boys agreed to let the girls go, then this would be fine. But I'm assuming that if a male felt that he really wanted to attend this regional that he would be allowed? I'm only looking at opportunity here. Don't get me wrong, I think that getting more girls involved in FIRST is great, and that sending an all-girls team is a great idea, if everyone agrees on it, and no one feels left out due to something that they can't control; their gender.

Jacob

[Schnabel]

I am glad I kept my mouth shut until N7UJJ clarified. I do not agree with an all-girls team in the fact that is the same and an all-boys team (which I also do not agree with).
Thus begins [rant]. I was glad to hear that the boys had a chance to go to because at first it sounded like they were discriminating. I think that teams today have a major problem with not having enough of one gender on a team. If a team is open to both genders, but only has boys on it, then they are not accomplishing what FIRST is all about. They then need to go out and try harder to get more girls involved. If you ask me, the perfect team is with 50% guys and 50% girls, mentors and students a like. I also think that the drive team (with being an even number of people on it) needs to be two guys and two girls. Not 3 guys 1 girl, or vice versa, or even all four of one gender. I believe that to really accomplish the ways that FIRST is trying to promote, this is the best. Also, I do not believe in all-(single gender) teams. Again I like the hole 50:50 thing, and if you ask me, that is the worst that it gets. Sure, we need to try to get more girls involved in FIRST, but there are plenty of guys in the world that need to be inspired too. Anyways, [/rant].

[falconmaster]

I am the other sponsor of team 842 Falcon Robotics. I am as competitive as the next guy, but I also know and believe that it really isn't about the robots. Its just the gimmick used to get all of us together to celebrate math, science and technology in a venue that has proven to be a successful model, sports. Of course winning is a goal, but winning is not always about the robot doing the winning. It is striving for that goal that makes us all better. Wining is not really winning if the cost is too high.
As a coach in sports as well as a robot team I know that a team is as strong as its weakest members. This exercise we did, while difficult to win in the short run, will enable us to win in the long run by making our weakest members stronger. It also allowed us to again reach more people that are under represented in engineering and hopefully spark their will to become an engineer by giving them a chance to be an "engineer". Who would have thought that all we had to do was look at our own team to change the culture. Imagine that.
Also as a coach you want your best people out there, but how do you know what you have unless you give all the members a try, in the "heat of battle". In track, you put your four best runners in the relay, no matter who they are.
We were giving the chance to the girls to see what they could do, in a world where they don't get nearly the chances that the guys do.

Some great benefits came out of letting the "rookies" have at the bot. By being novices and practically no driving experience, the girls came with few preconceptions about what was to happen. So when the girls told us that the robot didn't drive straight, we had to find out why and we did! There was a small drive train problem. This prevented us from driving straight in autonomous. Once this was fixed, we drove straight as an arrow! The boys would instinctively make the correction when driving and think nothing of it. Another problem discovered by the girls was that we were not getting full power to the motors when needed. We have our bot using 40% of max speed to give us more accuracy when navigating around the other bots and ringers. there is a trigger the driver needs to pull while using the joysticks that will enable the the motors to receive full power for pushing robots back or out of the way. Some how the guys with their experience did not notice that they could not get 100% of the power, again because their driving skills mask the robots weakness. When the girls pointed out that there was no difference we hooked up the laptop and looked at the readings, and they were right, pulling the trigger made no measurable difference. Once that was corrected in the code, the robot had no problem pushing any other bot out of the way.

One side note to all this, as a mentor I saw how teams and people treated us differently between being co-ed to all girls.....

We presented the boys on the team with the idea and while they were not excited about the idea at first, they agreed that the girls would learn a lot and also learn how to put up with the stress and humbling that would occur at the hands of all the more experienced teams there. They wanted to learn and the guys wanted them to see what it was like, so the team agreed to make the all girls team for one regional. Also knowing they would have another regional and nationals helped. We went to three regionals Az, co-ed San Diego girls, NV co-ed, . The girls also gained an understanding of what a difference driving experience makes. Next year we start playstation time in the fall after school and driving the older bots up and down our hallway with obstacles both going away and toward them. Get the left right and opposite thing going.

Ultimately the goal of FIRST is to inspire and motivate as many people as possible to appreciate and participate in engineering so that we might have a better world in the future,...... and that is what we did.

[whytheheckme]

OK... I don't want to make this a big deal, but some of this doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you can clarify.

Originally Posted by falconmaster

As a coach in sports as well as a robot team I know that a team is as strong as its weakest members. This exercise we did, while difficult to win in the short run, will enable us to win in the long run by making our weakest members stronger.

...

We were giving the chance to the girls to see what they could do, in a world where they don't get nearly the chances that the guys do.

Some great benefits came out of letting the "rookies" have at the bot. By being novices and practically no driving experience, the girls came with few preconceptions about what was to happen. So when the girls told us that the robot didn't drive straight, we had to find out why and we did!

I don't believe in any respect that females are the 'weakest' members of any team. On our team, all of the drivers get equal practice time, including the girls. Our girls have all of the 'chances' that our guys have, right from the start. I don't believe that we need to send ONLY girls to a regional for them to have an equal opportunity; in fact, I believe that sending a co-ed team gives EVERYONE an equal opportunity, because everyone who is eligible to participate is at the event, and the driver with the best skills and the most probability to win drives that match. Our girls are in no way 'rookies', unless if they are truely rookies to the team.

Originally Posted by falconmaster

One side note to all this, as a mentor I saw how teams and people treated us differently between being co-ed to all girls.....

Perhaps you can elaborate.

Originally Posted by falconmaster

We presented the boys on the team with the idea and while they were not excited about the idea at first, they agreed that the girls would learn a lot and also learn how to put up with the stress and humbling that would occur at the hands of all the more experienced teams there. They wanted to learn and the guys wanted them to see what it was like, so the team agreed to make the all girls team for one regional. Also knowing they would have another regional and nationals helped. We went to three regionals Az, co-ed San Diego girls, NV co-ed, . The girls also gained an understanding of what a difference driving experience makes.

I'm still a little bit confused as to why your whole team couldnt travel, and perhaps you let some inexperienced drivers drive, and if they were girls, great. It appears that the male members of your team DID seem to mind, at least a first, that they couldn't compete simply because they were male.

I really don't want to make a big deal here, and I hate posts about people complaining about other's ideals and beliefs. But this is a topic that I personally find very disturbing and disheartening. If a team wants their girls to have the same experience as the boys, I believe that they should have the SAME opportunity, and not be given special treatment, simply because they are girls.

Please don't get me wrong. I completely support girls in FIRST in EVERY aspect, I would love to see a pure 50-50 mix, both in numbers, and in 'job' opportunity. But creating an environment in which to fix the situation, you simply eliminate the boys, I don't think is in the spirit of FIRST.

Perhaps this post is very radical, and I may get bashed because of it. But I am simply standing for what I believe is right, and perhaps some others agree with me.

This is just an opinion. I am not forcing it on anyone.

Jacob