pic: We left the boys at home

[Schnabel]

You know, Jake made a GREAT point. I believe that the team should have an equal opportunity, no matter who is who in it. I am not so much saying anymore about 842 as what happened, happened. That was their decision and they did just that. I am not saying that I agree with it though. I still say that no matter what, a team should always be co-ed because that would give equal opportunity to everyone. As far as just sending girls to competition goes, it is no different than just sending guys which would attract more attention. I think that either way is no better than the other. As far as this subject goes, MORE POWER TO JAKE! I was one of the people that was afraid to post on here thinking that my head would get bitten off. That stage is gone now. Jake, you have my full support!

[JaneYoung]

I've had my questions answered by the members of Team 842, would one of the mods please close this thread.

Thank you.
Jane

[whytheheckme]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

I've had my questions answered by the members of Team 842, would one of the mods please close this thread.

I agree. I think that everything that could be discussed has been discussed. This has been interesting.

Jacob

[Steve W]

Re opened as requested. PLEASE keep discussion on topic.

Jacob, I agree that all has been said.... on your ideas. Please let others follow the thread topic.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by whytheheckme

On my team, there are 4 students going to ATL on Wed. night. Some of them asked if they could go to the 'prom'. The answer was immediatly 'no', because the rest of the team wasn't there, and it would not be fair to them. Just because these students were fortunate enough to qualify to come early (the rest of the team is coming late thurs night to save $ on hotel) doesn't mean that you can go out and do things without the rest of the team. If the team doesn't go, you don't go. Period.

I agree with most of your points, but I don't really understand this one. To me, thats like saying if one team member cant raise the money to go to the event, no one can.

[Erin Rapacki]

The gender bias in boys and girls starts when they are born. Cartoons, TV, magazines, movies, parents, EVERYTHING starts separating the two genders as to what they can and cannot do. Society sets up girls to not be interested in science and technology... plain an simple. Its an extra BIG hurdle nearly every woman in sci/tech has to get over at some point in their lives whether they're young or old.

Its a worth-while hurdle to get over, sci/tech has its rewards as a career path.

Guys get a head start and the small things mattered (toys, comic books, cartoons, dads, sports, etc...). I understand that guys need motivation and inspiration too... but men have a long history of being involved in sci/tech already. Women do not - its a relatively short history.

Many, if not most, girls are behind in their confidence when it comes to sci/tech than guys by the time they reach high school. Its all psycological, the guys and girls may have the same experience level, but girls also want to feel USEFUL to their teams... so they step more towards the 'girly' roles.

I don't mean to offend any of the girls who got involved with the tech stuff right away... you rock!

So I'm just trying to explain this to the high school guys posting in this thread; girls need some time to work within their comofort zone as a CONFIDENCE builder. All-girls teams work well for this purpose and its a good way to get started in sci/tech. Once they've gained their confidence (seeing the robot work knowing THEY fixed it), then they'll have no problem working with guys and, eventually, in the real world.

I think the culture is changing... step by step. We all just need to understand that girls need to have personal ownership of a design detail or project that they can build their confidence around, and let them know that their ideas benefit the team.

erin

Oh, and one other thing... what did you want to be when you grow up? A vetrinarian, doctor, fire-man, teacher, astronaut? Do most kids DON'T even know where their iPod comes from, and most parents are in no position to tell them. I've met a number of older women who were never exposed to sci/tech until they were middle aged; they went back to college and switched careers. A few of them really wished they had something like FIRST when they were younger. The girls in FIRST today are SO CLOSE, they are almost there, but its up to the mentors to help them build their confidence by letting these girls have ownership of design details and let them know their technical ideas are valuable.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by whytheheckme

No, I did not miss this part. This does not explain why they segregated the people who went to this regional. If missing school was an issue, then each student should have attended the same number of regionals.

This isn't for you to decide, this is a team decision and every team operates differently. They had the funds to go to three regionals, but not the means to do it with everyone on their team because of the amount of school that would be missed. Instead of choosing fewer competitions, they chose to send certain people to certain regionals.

Your stance has been established, but I think it's time to move on. 842's team members agreed upon this, it's something they decided to do and honestly, something that should be done more often. There are far more males not only in FIRST but in many technological fields as well. In my past experiences, many female students would not take a hands on role if a male student was present - at least not at first. It's that first initial interaction to a leadership role, to taking charge that will boost confidence regardless of gender. These students were in charge, they stepped up and made it happen, and they're all better for it. If anything, the team interaction for the following build season will probably improve dramatically. So the boys didn't get to go to one regional - so what? They've had the opportunity to go to two others and the championship event. It would be different if the team was only going to one or two competitions for the season, but they're competing a total of four separate times which is the big difference here.

No one is trying to eliminate the gender issue here because it will always be a factor, but what 842 did with their female students will only help the dynamics of the team in future build seasons.

[dapub]

Jacob said:

Originally Posted by whytheheckme

On my team, there are 4 students going to ATL on Wed. night. Some of them asked if they could go to the 'prom'. The answer was immediatly 'no', because the rest of the team wasn't there, and it would not be fair to them. Just because these students were fortunate enough to qualify to come early (the rest of the team is coming late thurs night to save $ on hotel) doesn't mean that you can go out and do things without the rest of the team. If the team doesn't go, you don't go. Period.

To which Tom asked:

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

I agree with most of your points, but I don't really understand this one. To me, thats like saying if one team member cant raise the money to go to the event, no one can.

As a mentor of Jacob's team, I will answer that question. First, Jacob did not quite represent the situation clearly (!) The students going to Atlanta early will be arriving Wed. night, while the team is arriving Thurs. night. The team has dinner and a meeting planned for Thursday night, and the mentors did not think it would be feasible for the team to go to the 'prom'. Because the students arriving on Wed. are part of the team, they are required to do the activities that the team is doing on Thursday. It would not be right for them to go to the prom while the team is arriving, and miss the team events.

As several people have mentioned in this thread, every team has their own decisions to make, and it is interesting to see how we all arrive at those decisions. Of course, we all have our own background situations within our own teams which influence our decisions. It is not one team or person's place to judge decisions made by another team. That really should be the point of this thread. I can see how the point that Jacob was trying to make was borne from the original post, but it really is a different discussion.

[KathieK]

Ah, equality. It's an interesting topic. I believe that women and men have EQUAL worth, but are different. We think differently, we're wired differently, we communicate differently (and it's been proven over and over again through scientific studies). And I'm thankful that it's so, it is what makes the world an interesting place.

Jacob, I'm hoping that you will take a leadership role on your team as it matures and bring equal opportunities to all your members. In order to do that, it might mean having to single some of them out for special treatment/training/tutoring, so that their skillset and confidence becomes equal with others on the team. I didn't have these opportunities as a high school student (not allowed to take industrial arts courses and was blatently discriminated against in my drafting course) and ended up in a traditional women's career field for 25 years. If only one mentor had said, "let's try an experiment and give the young women on our team an opportunity to shine"... my life might have changed. I understand your position - why single out one entity on the team - but I also understand the reason that they did it.

My initial reaction to seeing the photo though, was, why are they all posing that way? We still have a long way to go.

[Greg Perkins]

Here is my completely unbiased opinion on the subject.

As a member in high school of team 151 we had spread of about 75%/25% of males to females on our team. As the year progressed, the natural course of society reared it's ugly head and the team became divided between technical and non-technical students. While most of the guys on our team found themselves accepted mechanically, the girls usually just filtered into the non-technical sub teams and no-one ever complained. Most girls found themselves doing spirit, media, and business for the good of 151.

Is this wrong? No, and only because there was no opposition of the females; instead of saying they wanted more "hands-on" duties that dealt with the robot, they just merely followed society. Do I agree with it? No, but I think the deeper question would be, is society causing our young women to be molded into this "stereotype"? Segregation of sex is just a gruesome display of what this country (and more-so the world) is unfortunately shaped after.

One hundred years ago women couldn't vote or hold the same duties of men. What did women do about this? Women ratified American politics so women had equal rights to vote, and to work. Women ratified this by uniting together to promote equality, and today it just seems that girls in FIRST just want to step back and instead of working towards what they want, they follow the roads of the Paris Hilton's and Lindsey Lohans' attitude of the "whatever" mentality that these "role models" so eloquently portray to our nations female youth.

/gets off soapbox

What would I do to make all sides happy in this situation?
Take everybody. Maybe your team is like my former team and the girls usually just cheer and make banners...reverse the roles. Invite the girls to man the pit crew, drive team, and scouting. To promote equality make the guys on the team cheer and lead the spirit for the regionals. This is a good way not to "discriminate" against one sex or the other when it comes to traveling, you bring both, just duties are switched at the regional. Compromise compromise compromise!

[Madison]

I'd love to read more about 842's experience at the event and, particularly, how it contrasts with other events.

I sometimes wonder if FIRST's focus on involving more underrepresented groups in its programs tricks us into thinking that we're all doing a fantastic job at creating a safe, welcoming environment for those people. We're not -- or, at least, we can certainly do better -- and only through the narratives of those who're affected can we learn to change for the better.

Ideologically, I believe strongly that singling out woman, for example, as a target for increased attention only further marginalizes their position in a society. Necessarily, those who can take such initiative are in a position of privilege and power over others, making them least suited to understanding that which keeps the underrepresented away. "Equal Opportunity," is a placebo that distracts us from perceiving more damaging, innate prejudices. It's a magic trick.

We need to hear the voices of the people that the program has reached -- not those who're doing the reaching -- and find out from them what works and what does not work. When people feel at ease enough with this environment that can speak and write candidly about what doesn't work, we'll have really started making things change. Right now, we're posturing a lot and achieving remarkably little -- but there's momentum and that's certainly not a bad thing.

(...and remarkably, I think of myself as an optimist. )

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by dapub

The students going to Atlanta early will be arriving Wed. night, while the team is arriving Thurs. night. The team has dinner and a meeting planned for Thursday night, and the mentors did not think it would be feasible for the team to go to the 'prom'.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the assumption this "prom" was on Wednesday night. The situation makes perfect sense now, and I completely agree with the mentor's decisions.

[SBass]

What else would you do with them?

hehe

[*chants* JERRY JERRY JERRY JERRY!!]

[SBass]

Originally Posted by Greg Perkins

Here is my completely unbiased opinion on the subject.

As a member in high school of team 151 we had spread of about 75%/25% of males to females on our team. As the year progressed, the natural course of society reared it's ugly head and the team became divided between technical and non-technical students. While most of the guys on our team found themselves accepted mechanically, the girls usually just filtered into the non-technical sub teams and no-one ever complained. Most girls found themselves doing spirit, media, and business for the good of 151.

Is this wrong? No, and only because there was no opposition of the females; instead of saying they wanted more "hands-on" duties that dealt with the robot, they just merely followed society. Do I agree with it? No, but I think the deeper question would be, is society causing our young women to be molded into this "stereotype"? Segregation of sex is just a gruesome display of what this country (and more-so the world) is unfortunately shaped after.

One hundred years ago women couldn't vote or hold the same duties of men. What did women do about this? Women ratified American politics so women had equal rights to vote, and to work. Women ratified this by uniting together to promote equality, and today it just seems that girls in FIRST just want to step back and instead of working towards what they want, they follow the roads of the Paris Hilton's and Lindsey Lohans' attitude of the "whatever" mentality that these "role models" so eloquently portray to our nations female youth.

/gets off soapbox

What would I do to make all sides happy in this situation?
Take everybody. Maybe your team is like my former team and the girls usually just cheer and make banners...reverse the roles. Invite the girls to man the pit crew, drive team, and scouting. To promote equality make the guys on the team cheer and lead the spirit for the regionals. This is a good way not to "discriminate" against one sex or the other when it comes to traveling, you bring both, just duties are switched at the regional. Compromise compromise compromise!

*grabs the microphone*
hey my team is similar... we have joined forces with the future hispanic leaders club at our school that has a bunch of girls and one guy that have joined our team. The guy started doing mechanical work, and the girls all did spirit team, decorations, etc. This leaves me being the only "technical" girl on my team. I always hate being at robotics and one of our mentors is looking for somebody to make a poster and they go straight to me! Seriously.. girls: you need to go to robotics and be an equal. You can still make posters and decorations, do fundraising, etc, but you also need to do the robotics part, and dont do all the non-technical stuff for the guys. They need to pitch in too. And don't give me some jack about how you don't have enough time or you aren't smart enough, You have just as much free time as the guys do and you are certainly just as (if not MORE) able as they are.

[Schnabel]

Well, this thread was opened back up to get back onto topic, but we went astray almost as soon as that happened. Let's try to get back onto topic (whatever that was ).