Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?

[james carlisle]

When you think about it the problem is partly form the game. I mean last year the flags were not very much of a problem but this year the game has robots climbing on top of each other and flying rings that seem to always land on the flag. All I'm saying is that next year the flags may not be much of a problem.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by akeisic

I'll almost guarantee that FIRST will change the alliance indicator for next year. Why? The flag presents a safety hazard. I’m surprised no one has really mentioned it yet. How many times have you seen judges and refs pull off matrix like maneuvers just to avoid a flying flag? That alone is reason to change.

Or maybe it is just practice? Last year: First time use of projectiles as game pieces. This year: First time that flags "accidently" start flying. Next year: Projectile Flags used as game pieces?

-dave

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Or maybe it is just practice? Last year: First time use of projectiles as game pieces. This year: First time that flags "accidently" start flying. Next year: Projectile Flags used as game pieces?

-dave

Welcome to the 2008 FIRST Robotics Competition - Kiss and (William) Tell??????

Human players put the apples on their heads. 10 point safety penalty for each HP impalement.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Or maybe it is just practice? Last year: First time use of projectiles as game pieces. This year: First time that flags "accidently" start flying. Next year: Projectile Flags used as game pieces?

-dave

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Welcome to the 2008 FIRST Robotics Competition - Kiss and (William) Tell??????

Human players put the apples on their heads. 10 point safety penalty for each HP impalement.

"You'll put your eye out, kid!"

[efoote868]

A clue! A clue!
Next year we're playing lawn darts.

I have to say, I liked the flags. As bad as they are, it really does make it much easier to identify robot teams. It also made it clear which teams had penalties, in an easy manner.

In '06, we had lexan sides that Velcro-ed on our robot, and they would always come off during the match (pretty much a major annoyance). I'm not in favor of anything of the sort.

What if bumpers had some sort of clear cover, and had an insert, like something you'd find in a wallet, or like a CD/DVD case? If the covers/holders were provided in the KOP, or had certain standards, they would be like flags, except flush on the robot. It would be lightweight, pretty low tech, won't interfere with gameplay, and minimalistic.

idk just a suggestion (since i pretty much shot another one down)

[Ryan Foley]

Travis, I like the idea. While Efoote868's clear cover idea sounds good, I think that as long as teams can still put their team number on the outside of the bumper, then I like that idea too.

However, I agree with Jeff, the rotating light from 2003 and before has been the most visible form of alliance indication, as well as robot status indication. With recent years, we have two systems, the flag, and some sort of indicator light. Sure the rotating lights were big and bulky, but I saw them as one of the hardest design challenges with those years.

Back on topic, while I like the bumper idea a lot, visibility may be an issue since they are so low to the ground, and in a bot pile up, won't be easily seen. Could be interesting for referees with the robot interaction calls.

[Teger]

Im probably missing some vital thing here...but Il suggest it anyways...We are required to have the signal lights on our robots, which must be visible, and are relatively bright...why not just make those double as alliance-color indicators?

[Otaku]

FIRST should make some sort of long-range artillery-based game. Like... Launching potatoes!

Man, after I get the money needed for IFI's control system + Kitbot chassis parts, I am going to have so much fun building a personal robot for me to do whatever I please with it (robo-recliner, Portable Potato Artillery, Soda/Iced Tea Can Launcher, Shirt Cannon, etc).

Originally Posted by Teger

Im probably missing some vital thing here...but Il suggest it anyways...We are required to have the signal lights on our robots, which must be visible, and are relatively bright...why not just make those double as alliance-color indicators?

I've thought this too. High-power LED's (4 red, 4 blue) in the status light, have only your alliance color turn on, have it double as a status light/alliance indicator. That'd be the best option (especially since the rules call for it to be visible as well).

[Alekat]

I could see something similar to the rule about having the team number on all 4 sides of the bot.

Basically: Each of the four sides of the robot must have at least one solid rectangle X by X inches in size made of velcro.

These could go on bumpers. But if they do you shouldn't be allowed to make blue or red bumpers, as this would be too confusing.

[Alpha 997]

NOOOOO it would be such a pain to have so many bumpers. Our bumpers this year keep getting tore up or off by robots that don't have bumpers and I had to keep remake them. It would be such a pain to have to make at least 4 sets (1 set of each color for backup) of bumpers!!! And it would be even a bigger pain having to switch them between matches.

I do hate the flag system though. During the elimination matches in Davis, tubs got stuck on our best scoring alliance partner, TWICE!!!! And our other partner had to take time and remove them.

[Dave Campbell]

After 2 regional events, we have found that our color coded bumpers have been very effective. They are easy to see and they are fairly easy to swap, however, in both events we did not have enough time to change them out in any of the quarter-finals, semis or finals matches. We were busy making sure that the robot was totally functional. That is why we decided to do two red and two blue bumpers for the eliminations. Our bumpers were always highly visible in every match. There were plenty of matches where we were gently persuaded by one or more opponents in a "robot pile up" but one could still discern our robot by its bumpers. However, I am not totally convinced that our color coded bumpers are the best solution. We'll see how they do in Atlanta next week.

[ALIBI]

Last year we drilled two holes opposite eachother in the top of the PVC Tube (probably not legal ) and stretched a piece of surgical tubing through the tube. This held the flag in very well and would also allow for the addition of a second flag if needed. Face it, when the flags stay in, they really do the job they are designed for. Others have stated and I agree, next year and beyond we will probably not have a game piece that can get stuck on them. Lights use power and can break. Changing out bumpers, forget it. Our team was in que, next up, when the first call for quing for our next round was heard. With only a few matches between matches the kids had all they could do to run the check list and swap out the batteries. No way could they have changed out the bumpers. I agree with another post that talked about a bolt on flag with a spring on bottom of the shaft. Why not offer flags that have poles 2', 3', 4', 5' long or what ever to make sure that the flag is above the max height of the robot (starting configuration) giving teams the ability to design a robot where the flag could be mounted at several different places on their robot and still have the flag above the robot? It seems like this would give the teams the greatest flexibility in flag location and would not be a constriction on robot design and allow for easy identification during matches.

[234smidget]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Anyone in Pittsburgh knows that Team 1038 used red or blue color coded bumpers to designate their alliance during the qualifying matches. They were very visible to spectators at all times.

My question - can a similar bumper system be put in place to get rid of the flags/flag holders and all the complications they bring to the competition? They rarely stay put; they end up being ringer magnets; and they are often hard to see from all angles. Having color-coded bumpers would solve all that.

I wouldn't expect all teams to create 2 sets of red and blue bumpers for the event, but all teams COULD be required to set aside a square "alliance patch area" covered in velcro on each side of their robot, inside the bumper zones. Instead of flags, teams would be given four matching red or blue color patches to place in these areas for the match. Even if teams chose not to use bumpers, they could still make sure these patch areas were present on their bot in the bumper zones.

Opinions? Comments?

Anyway, kudos to Team 1038 for their creative bumper color coding.

I like the idea it is very creative but i dont want it to be required...cyberblue234 design this year does not involve bumpers and would not look the same if we added bumpers...i like the flags...in this years' game throwing a ringer on someones flag accidently could decide whether a team wins or not i think it makes the game interesting but i dont know i think it all depends on the game and the rules but i hope this all makes sense... it is kind of late here

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

Going back a ways, I wonder what ever happened to the red & blue covered siren lights... They could be difficult to mount, but they were very visible from everywhere... and if you planned it right, they were easy to see.

These rotating lights were easily able to be broken, they were difficult to mount b/c of their size, they carried way too much weight, and above all they are expensive to purchase. FIRST made a good decision in ditching the rotating lights. visible they were but robot friendly they weren't. I'm kinda upset at the fact that they even ditched the LED clusters which were more robot friendly due to its size and weight. I like the color coded bumber or velcro coded system idea it would be alot better then these flags. And a alot more safer.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

These rotating lights were easily able to be broken, they were difficult to mount b/c of their size, they carried way too much weight, and above all they are expensive to purchase. FIRST made a good decision in ditching the rotating lights. visible they were but robot friendly they weren't. I'm kinda upset at the fact that they even ditched the LED clusters which were more robot friendly due to its size and weight. I like the color coded bumber or velcro coded system idea it would be alot better then these flags. And a alot more safer.

The LED clusters didn't put out enough light to differentiate between colors in the middle of a match.