Flag Solutions...

[colin340]

i like non luminescent like flags or bumpers
it could get hard to drive the robot with all that bright light on the robot

[JoeXIII'007]

Personally, I would like to go back to the police lights that were on 2002 bots... that's just me.

[Adam Shapiro]

Originally Posted by JoeXIII'007

Personally, I would like to go back to the police lights that were on 2002 bots... that's just me.

Too many bad memories of shattered plastic all over the field..

[John Gutmann]

I know everyone is saying use these LEDs these are bright, wait no use these these are brighter. But like I have said before I don't think it is too important to have a bright LED. Think about it if you have an LED that has a 30 degree viewing angle and a diffused LED which one will you beable to see from any point you stand around it? the diffused you can see from more then 1/2 a sphere around it. All I am saying is don't jump the gun. Besides what is simpler and cheaper, because supposed they muke us make our own but give us instructions.

-John

[dlavery]

I really hate to burst anyone's bubble. But before anyone puts a lot of effort into coming up with snazzy alternatives to the flags, we need to admit something right up front: it ain't gonna happen. Why? It is due to a simple, basic fact that everyone has skipped over so far:
$$$

Let's check some fiscal realities. A typical rotating bubble light (single bulb, 12v, single rotating element, including two single-color gels and mounting hardware), purchased in bulk, goes for about $58.50. There will be an estimated 1500 teams next year. Each team needs one, plus 10% more for spares, so 1650. That comes to a total of $96,525.*

The bright LED clusters (including 4- to 6-LED element, programmable color display, protective diffusing cover, mounting housing, and connecting hardware) came in at about $43.50 each. Each of the 1500 teams will need two (or maybe four, but let's go with the lower limit for a minute), plus 10% for spares, so 3300 units needed. That comes to a total of $143,550.*

Now consider the flags. A typical red or blue bicycle flag (impregnated fabric or urethane plastic, 10-inch size, mounted to a 1/4 inch diameter, 36-inch fiberglass whip pole) can be purchased for $6.50 (unit one). Each team does not need a flag (they just provide their own flag holders), so they don't have to be included in the kits. Each regional competition just has to have an adequate supply of the flags. Let's say they need 24 flags (six on the field, 12 more for the teams in the queue, and six more for spares). There will be an estimated 42 regional competitions next year, but only 10 running at any one time (the flags get recycled from event to event). That means you need a total of 240 flags, for a total cost of $1560.*

So, put yourself in FIRST's place. You have a choice between three options. They price out at $96.5K, $143.5K, and $1.5K. Everything that goes in the kit of parts has to be cost-justified. If you go over the set budget, every additional dollar will get passed directly to the teams. That could result in a cost increase to participate in the program. And the last time the cost of participation went up, the teams screamed bloody murder about it.

Anyone want to guess what we will have in the kit of parts for next year?

-dave

p.s. again, I am not saying any of this to put down any of the cool ideas that folks might come up with. But I am trying to remind everyone that when they start thinking about cool solutions to perceived problems, you have to make sure that the solutions address the ENTIRE problem and not just part of it. "Cost" is ALWAYS a part of the problem statement.

p.p.s. * all these prices have been normalized to reflect unit one purchases from easily identified sources. They can be reduced through bulk purchases. But the relative costs between the options will remain the same. Yes, it is probably possible to get the prices of the lights/LEDs reduced. It is also possible to get the prices of the flags reduced. So please don't nit-pick the numbers and say "but I can get the lights for $1.16 less than that from XYZ company" - that is irrelevent to the central point.

[Ryan Albright]

Originally Posted by dlavery

The bright LED clusters (including 4- to 6-LED element, programmable color display, protective diffusing cover, mounting housing, and connecting hardware) came in at about $43.50 each. Each of the 1500 teams will need two (or maybe four, but let's go with the lower limit for a minute), plus 10% for spares, so 3300 units needed. That comes to a total of $143,550.*

Simple solution

Whelen FIRST sponsorship

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by dlavery

"Cost" is ALWAYS a part of the problem statement.

Thank you, Dave, for pointing out that engineers -- even those who design out-of-this-world gadgets for NASA -- are frugal souls by nature.

Originally Posted by Ryan Albright

Simple solution. Whelen FIRST sponsorship

This misses the point. A real engineer won't spend money if it can be avoided -- not even sponsors' money.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Now consider the flags. A typical red or blue bicycle flag (impregnated fabric or urethane plastic, 10-inch size, mounted to a 1/4 inch diameter, 36-inch fiberglass whip pole) can be purchased for $6.50 (unit one). Each team does not need a flag (they just provide their own flag holders), so they don't have to be included in the kits. Each regional competition just has to have an adequate supply of the flags. Let's say they need 24 flags (six on the field, 12 more for the teams in the queue, and six more for spares). There will be an estimated 42 regional competitions next year, but only 10 running at any one time (the flags get recycled from event to event). That means you need a total of 240 flags, for a total cost of $1560.*

Dave makes a great point here (not that he ever doesn't)--flags are an economical choice, definitely for the drastic cost reduction involved.

Now, can anyone meet or beat that $6.50 figure with something more eye-catching than flags?

[Mr. Freeman]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Now, can anyone meet or beat that $6.50 figure with something more eye-catching than flags?

Why does every team need to have the LEDs in their kit of parts?
How about making a standardised "LED holder" instead of the flag holder. Run an extension cable from the RC "team color" ports to an area next to a square of Velcro in a visible place on the robot (hold the cable on with those adhesive things you can zip-tie cables to). In the queue each team is given an LED cluster box (or two, depending on how many clusters there need to be for the LEDs to be visible) that will attach to the Velcro and plug into the cable extension on the robot. Just like flags, only shinier.

[EricRobodox]

I dont think it would be as safe, but would definetly look cool:
Lasers

I know they have Green and Red, but if there could be some cool way of shinning a light upward from the robot and have it visible, I think that would look awesome. (If there are other colored lasers, or lights [blue and red] , that shine a beam of light visible through the medium of the atmosphere)
Safety though would take another route probably, because of blindness that lasers can cause. Still think it would be a cool idea.

[Gabe]

Colored LED lights...

[AcesPease]

I'll chime in for solutions that hold the flag more securely. The ramp bots especially had trouble holding onto their flags at the end of matches. The flags are actually more visible and cheaper than the lights we have tried over the years, and a lot easier to replace when they break and the lights were always breaking.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by sparksandtabs

I don't Know if there a rule reguarding this or not. But why not just have a rule that makes it legal for teams to have thier own Identification System. That the GDC can decide whether the team has to or doesn't have to use the flag. Same idea as the bumpers, you can use this thing and have this advenge by using it but you need to make it to this exact specification. That way FIRST doesn't have to pay for it and it is a standardized way of doing something.

When you start making rules which allow teams to make up their own rules, all such rules (and rules about making rules) become irrelevant rules.

From a refereeing standpoint, you need a unified system to identify robots. Allowing teams to make up their own methods would prove overly complicate the job of refereeing. And from a judicial standpoint, I think the GDC would have better questions to answer during the build season than 1500 teams all asking them if their own system of identifying themselves is adequate.

As Dave said, all potential "solutions" have to solve all the current issues and do so better than the current choice of flags. While we may not always enjoy the flags, it's hard to beat flags when it comes to being cheap, easy to change before each match, allows for standard and easily visible robot/alliance identification, and allows for the addition of yellow flags. Unless there is a better solution for all of those characteristics, the flag will stay.

[John Gutmann]

Art- First of all I am bad with words, so bear with me.

I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say is have a rule for a robot identifier that teams can make themselves. It would be like the bumpers, if you want to use them then you have to follow strict guildines. This way you have either a flag or a what FIRST would say teams can make.

If it is the same way the bumpers are then you can only make them one way. I have never seen a team use 3 pool noodles in their bumper. I don't think anybody has. why? It is against the strict bumper guidelines.

Let me know if you understnad better now.

-John

[AV_guy007]

Originally Posted by EricRobodox

I dont think it would be as safe, but would definetly look cool:
Lasers

I know they have Green and Red, but if there could be some cool way of shinning a light upward from the robot and have it visible, I think that would look awesome. (If there are other colored lasers, or lights [blue and red] , that shine a beam of light visible through the medium of the atmosphere)
Safety though would take another route probably, because of blindness that lasers can cause. Still think it would be a cool idea.

They do make blue lasers but all the handheld lasers with a visible beam, not just a dot are very pricey. a lot more than the flags a lot more than the rotating lights alot more than the LEDs.