Best Atlanta Alliances

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

I'll take that bet right now.

I bet you would take that bet.

Originally Posted by Joel J.

[Scorer X] can pick [Armless Rampbot Y] with the number one seeded pick, have everyone laugh at them, then draft another scorer in the second round (just due to the sheer number of them, I bet a good one will still be around), and walk all over your alliance of three scorers. I'm not saying they would pick in this way, just pointing something out.

In this 2 scorer + rampbot scenario, you are presuming, correct, that the rampbot (whomever it is) would have a strong/fast enough drivetrain to really mess with the opposing alliance during the 1:45 it isn't doing its ramp thang, correct? A ramp-only bot without defense is like Dean Kamen without denim. We're not presuming the presence of superior lifts during the last bit of the match can overcome a shortage of defensive prowess the other 1:45 (plus any defensive auto modes that may be programmed)?

[Grant Cox]

I'll take 3 good scorers any day. 2 scorers and a great hybrid wouldn't be too bad either (and by great I mean good enough at scoring ringers to contribute to points, and a reliable 12 inch lifter or ramp)

with 3 good scorers, the offensive pounding would overthrow the opposing ramp every time. With 3 good scorers, it's impossible to defend them all adequately. With 2 and a good hybrid, you just have that "insurance" of an extra 30 or 60 at the end (or the "threat").

[Joel J]

Yea, I'm assuming the rampbot is good enough (drivetrain and driver-wise) to play defense. I think a weaker drivetrain on a rampbot could still get by, however, because of how effective it is to simply get in the way this year.

Its not that hard to block long rows, either-- just need a good enough field crew to do it.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

How about three offensive robots that can also play defense? Those of you rampers that think you will have undefended ramping at the Championships like you did at most regionals are in for a rude awakening.

You rampers that are playing defense on the far side of the field better beware because the smarter offensive robots will trap you on that far side of the field. Then what?

Let's see ... 24 places to score between 3 robots or one place to score (60 pts) completely depending on your ramper ......

I think the threat of the ramp is more important than actual ramping (in eliminations). Three decent scorers is devastating to try to stop.

If you want my ideal alliance: 2 scoring / defensive hybrids that MUST be able to score on the top spider and a Hybrid that is decent at scoring.

By the way, by my count there are at least 24 good scorers in Galileo which means our division has a great chance on Einstein (whoever represents us).

With that said, you great double rampers in Galileo will be a hot commodity since most people believe the ramp is absolutely critical ... I'm just not one of them.

This tactic was tried against us at BAE GSR. Only 1 team was able to pull it off (Kudos to team #40 Checkmate).

The reason that most cannot do it is because the drivetrains for most offensive robots are designed for manuverability and speed, and not the raw pushing power which is needed to trap a good defensive ramp.


.

[ALIBI]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

How about three offensive robots that can also play defense? Those of you rampers that think you will have undefended ramping at the Championships like you did at most regionals are in for a rude awakening.

You rampers that are playing defense on the far side of the field better beware because the smarter offensive robots will trap you on that far side of the field. Then what?

Let's see ... 24 places to score between 3 robots or one place to score (60 pts) completely depending on your ramper ......

I think the threat of the ramp is more important than actual ramping (in eliminations). Three decent scorers is devastating to try to stop.

If you want my ideal alliance: 2 scoring / defensive hybrids that MUST be able to score on the top spider and a Hybrid that is decent at scoring.

By the way, by my count there are at least 24 good scorers in Galileo which means our division has a great chance on Einstein (whoever represents us).

With that said, you great double rampers in Galileo will be a hot commodity since most people believe the ramp is absolutely critical ... I'm just not one of them.

Lots of good insight here by Paul! Having three robots that can score well will be a must. You only have nine ringers on your side of the field. Three offensive robots will run through those in less than forty-five seconds. Then what? Your best defensive scorer should go to the opposite side of the field to strategically place ringers on the opposing side using ringers off the wall. Your best scoring ramp/lifting bot should stay on your end to either place ringers or defend the defender sent over to block your second scorer if they send one over.

I would disagree with the 24 places to score between 3 robots statement. This is the championship, I see it as 24 places for 6 robots to score. It may not be as much defensive, but more by the way of two scorers fighting over the same spider leg to score. Most teams will have figured out how to stop rows of five by now.

By the time you get out of qualifiers I predict that you will not see many rows over four. If you do, both alliances will have them. There will simply be too many robots that can score on all three levels. Each alliance will get a couple rows of four, most rows of five will probably include two and maybe three keepers, finally auton will be important, and being able to grab sixty bonus points will be a neccessity.

The best alliance in Atlanta? Every robot out there needs to be a threat to score. Defense will end up being the fight over real estate on the rack, not just pushing eachother around. Matches will have 30-46 points off the rack per alliance with the match being won using bonus points.

Three robots that can score well. With at least one with good ramps/lifters, preferably two with good ramps/lifters. Both ramp/lifter robots must be able to climb if needed. If your ramp/lifter does get traped on the opposing side after playing awesome defense, your other ramp/lifter can still get 30 points and if your other ramp/lifter gets freed up it can run over for another 30 bonus points.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by ALIBI

Lots of good insight here by Paul! Having three robots that can score well will be a must. You only have nine ringers on your side of the field. Three offensive robots will run through those in less than forty-five seconds. Then what? Your best defensive scorer should go to the opposite side of the field to strategically place ringers on the opposing side using ringers off the wall. Your best scoring ramp/lifting bot should stay on your end to either place ringers or defend the defender sent over to block your second scorer if they send one over.

I guess the opposing alliance is off taking a coffee break while all this scoring awesomeness is going on?

If an alliance leaves 3 scorers alone, the scorers may be able to do what you suggested.......and the crowd falls asleep. If they instead decide to step away from their tea and crumpets and engage the scoring alliance directly, well then it gets beautifully-ugly, and that's when the fun begins.

[Beth Sweet]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

I guess the opposing alliance is off taking a coffee break while all this scoring awesomeness is going on?

If an alliance leaves 3 scorers alone, the scorers may be able to do what you suggested.......and the crowd falls asleep. If they instead decide to step away from their tea and crumpets and engage the scoring alliance directly, well then it gets beautifully-ugly, and that's when the fun begins.

You know Travis, I think I'd disagree with offensive matches being boring. I've seen some awesome matches that were teams outscoring each other (our QF at GLR against 1114 et al) was one of the most intense matches of the tournament. The crowd was screaming the whole time. And the teams just played "score a blue if they score a red". So, I wouldn't be surprised to see the crowd getting into an offensive match, so long as it's well played...

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Beth Sweet

You know Travis, I think I'd disagree with offensive matches being boring. I've seen some awesome matches that were teams outscoring each other (our QF at GLR against 1114 et al) was one of the most intense matches of the tournament. The crowd was screaming the whole time. And the teams just played "score a blue if they score a red". So, I wouldn't be surprised to see the crowd getting into an offensive match, so long as it's well played...

Uncontested offensive matches, where alliances keep to their sides of the field, are boring, in my opinion. If both alliances are putting up ringers at similar rates with a hand in their face, and they're crossing the field to mess with opposing rows, including use of the spoiler, then that is exciting.

But an 8-4 slugfest with last second ramping excites me more.

[Rob]

In my opinion, the best alliance will need the flexibility to choose from using many strategies in different matches, and the willingness to use them all (not being stubborn and trying to "do it your way").

I think there will be situations where you will need the flexibility to win using bonus points, to win using big rows on the top, to win by removing a spoiler, to seal up a victory by blocking your opponent from getting back to climb, the list goes on...

To draft an alliance that can only play one way is not, in my opinion, the winning solution. You need the flexibility to adapt to any circumstance that arises.

On a side note, I think that the primary strategy of most winning alliances will be to win with points on the rack & removal of spoilers, and use ramp points as an "out" when things don't go as planned.

Remember that it takes 3 robots to score 60 bonus points, but only 2 to block the climbers from getting back in time (park sideways between the rack and side of the field, pin them against the side of the field for 9 seconds, etc.) Also, it only takes 1 robot to place a ringer or spoiler that can be worth huge points.

One thing I like about this game is that all three types of scoring (placing ringers, lifting "bonus points", and placing/removing spoilers) are exciting engame winning moves. Every element of scoring is a viable and exciting way to win matches.

This should be fun, good luck everyone!

RAZ

[Swampdude]

All this talk about hybrids not being as effective scorers as arm only bots has me confused. I've seen just as many hybrid scorers as arm only's. I think the key to winning Einstein is "options" and using those "options". I see nothing wrong with a 3 hybrid alliance. Having different ramp options at the end is goodnes, say in the event Paul is blocking your original ramp. Meanwhile the rack is cut in half and they aren't getting the 256 they thought they were, your other ramp partner is setting up and you jump on him.
We're a hybrid and scored 7 ringers in 2 different matches (almost 8 once), and we had partners up 12" in most of our matches (when their drive trains worked). This is the case with lots of hybrids. So picking arm only bots can be a mistake if you have these strong hybrid choices available. I.E. 330, 254, 69, 180, 179 etc etc.
Although I will say that a strong characteristic I don't see mentioned much is a bot that grabs ringers off the far wall. A lot of our matches we ran out of HP ringers and some get popped etc. and we could have scored a couple more, but couldn't go into the opponent zone during the end game to get them. So starting out by working off the far wall is a big bonus to us. I did see a few teams do this pretty well (233 was getting good at this in Las Vegas).

[KTorak]

1 team that DOMINATES offense and can score 5-8 in a match
1 team that can score atleast 3-4, BUT can play defense IF needed
1 team that has 2 easy to use ramps at 12"+ and can play GOOD defense and/or score if needed.

As a side note, you need a robot capable of removing spoilers and a robot that is capable of picking up tubes efficiently from the far side.

You also need a good strategy going into each match. I'll admit to losing some matches that my alliance clearly could have won due to bad planing. If you over exert your scoring, you can let the other alliance in to block you with a tube. Say you score 1, 2, 5 and your partner scores 8, 7, 6 and no one quickly scores 3 and 4 for a row of 8, the opposing alliance may see that and block the row with two tubes, severely limiting your score.

[Frenchie]

In my opinion, the best alliance needs everything in pairs:

2 good scorers
2 good ramps
2 strong drivetrain (capable of playing defense)

That means you get:
1 robot with ramp and scoring ability
1 robot with strong drivertrain and scoring ability
1 robot with ramp and strong drivetrain

This allows you to play each match differently. The opposing alliance will never know who's going to go open their ramp, what kind of defense they have to expect and they cannot double team one of the scorers because that would mean leaving the other one alone.


I believe all alliances will NEED a ramp. The ramp has several advantages:
1) psychological advantages. A rampless alliance usually fears an alliance with a ramp. This sometimes lead alliances to make mistakes such as driving in the homezone in the end to prevent ramping, stopping their scoring to try to defend the other team's ramp, etc...
2) All alliances will have at least one (1) good scorer. An alliance with slightly better scoring capability might win the rack, but I'm sure a defensive atlanta alliance will be able to put on enough tube to make it impossible to have long rows... Hence improving their chances to win on the ramp.
3) Guaranteed 60 points at the end of each match (I'm sure Atlanta will have enough good ramps to call it "guaranteed" in some alliances). Week 5 regionals confirmed that ramp could win even the toughest matches in most cases.

Francois.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

1+ ramp/lift capable of 2@12" easily & consistently
2+ bots capable of scoring on all 3 levels
3 bots capable of scoring consistently
1+ bot capable of removing spoilers from all 3 levels
2+ bots with strong drivetrains capable of maintaining position
2+ bots capable of playing defense
1+ bot capable of scoring multiple tubes while being defended
3 bots with great drivers
3 bots that can score in autonomous

My ideal alliance

13 bots in one alliance no room for the other alliance.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

The best alliance will be the one who can effectively use the strengths and abilities of their team's robots and drivers to play upon their opponent's weaknesses and dis-abilities.

Whether their focus be defense, offense, spoiler control, ramps, or whatever else.. it doesn't really matter. Some teams always find a way to win, and I expect nothing different this year.

Example: 177 in 2006. They couldn't very shoot well, but they won 2 regionals and a division. Coincidence? I think not.

[Alpha 997]

Originally Posted by Brad Voracek

Two scoring robots, and a great lift bot capable of 2 robots 12inches high in ~15 seconds or less, every time. They should be able to score one or two tubes, but if they can lift in say, 5 seconds, then I wouldn't worry about being able to score tubes. One or two from them is a plus though.

The way I see it, if one team can get 6 tubes up in the right spots, they are unstoppable if their lifts work. Two vertical rows of three, directly opposite each other, allows the other team to only score 96 points, and that's if they can put up -18- tubes. Now the team that has 6 tubes up, two vertical rows of three, is capable of scoring 76 points, and they only put 6 tubes up. That's three tubes per scoring robot, and if they lift bot puts one up then the other alliance's score goes way down.

With 76 points, the other alliance -has- to score 16 tubes. 16. I don't know why the teams with lifts go for wrap-arounds. Offensive defense is where it is at.

(my math might be off in some places. Correct me as needed)

Exactly! Our team figured that out too. Also, there are only a few tubes that human players can throw, the offensive team would have to get the rest from the opposite side of the field.