Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, what happened?

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Joel J.

I'm on 1114's side on this one.. not only because of the fatality suffered by their robot, but because of how consistently poor the calls were by the refs this weekend. I don't know.. 229 partially suffered from a few bad calls (scored ringers not counting, tipped alliance partners not resulting in any form of penalization, etc), but nothing really that compares to what I witnessed in the divisional eliminations as I walked around.

I'm speechless this year.

No one could have predicted how nationals turned out this year, AND FOR GOOD REASON.

The referees decisions are final-- and that has been shown by the record books, but I'll just have to say their POWER in these situations does not strongly correlate with their ABILITY to ensure that these finals calls are just-- that is, inline with what has been written in the rules.

This whole year has been weird, and I must say that I'm glad its over.

I am sorry to say that I agree. FIRST Teams are asked to be more and more professional as the years come by, and yet the infrastructure itself remains very amateurish. Maybe we should try and work out the few glitches that remain before trying to mass export a beta product.

Francois.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

FIRST Teams are asked to be more and more professional as the years come by, and yet the infrastructure itself remains very amateurish.

The relevant infrastructure here is composed of amateurs. They're volunteers. To provide a consistently professional infrastructure would require professionally-paid workers, professional-quality training, and ongoing professionally-supervised evaluations. I doubt increasing the fees paid by teams to cover these costs would go over well.

As FIRST grows, teams are increasingly demanding better service. Can't it instead be that the teams can increasingly provide what they want FIRST to have? With more teams and more involvement, there ought to be a correspondingly higher pool of enthusiastic and capable volunteers.

A challenge to those of you grumbling about the refereeing this year: Be a referee next year. If you don't take some responsibility for improving the situation, try not to be upset if it doesn't change to your liking.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

A challenge to those of you grumbling about the refereeing this year: Be a referee next year. If you don't take some responsibility for improving the situation, try not to be upset if it doesn't change to your liking.

I'd like to be a referee. Unfortunately, all of the events in my area aren't very fond of college folks having ref spots. Or maybe its just me.

[Liz Smith]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

I'd like to be a referee. Unfortunately, all of the events in my area aren't very fond of college folks having ref spots. Or maybe its just me.

Well, I don't know exactly where you've been trying to referee, but I'm a Sophomore in college and I this year I refereed at 2 regionals (Pittsburgh and NYC) as well as at the Championship Event.

In my opinion, in response to people questioning the referees consistancy, the referees spent most of Thursday at the Championship discussing the rules and the minor details of the game. The head referees spent even longer discussing each and every rule. The referees in this competition are not oblivious to the controversies the come up within the game.

Now, on being informed of the rules. What you think may be inconsistancies with calls, may just be you just not knowing the rules of the game well enough. Besides the referee meeting, there was the drivers meeting at the championship, where the referees and the drivers discussed certain rules and how the calls were going to be made at the event. The drivers meeting answered all the questions that the drivers from the teams in all the divisions had. Unless you were at that entire drivers meeting, I don't think you have a fair say in how a play should have been called. I don't know what makes some of you think that you can trash the referees, maybe its because you think that unlike teams, they don't read CD.. but they do, and maybe you should be a little more careful about what you say about the referees.

[Tom Line]

While I wasn't involved - I did want to point something out. I watched that video - perhaps with a slightly different viewpoint than many people.

The referees went into the match had no special warning of where to watch. They had no advance notice that something major and very controversial might occur. As such, you and I are far, far more prepared to try to evaluate what happened. Especially since we have a very small section of the field to watch - we are watching a single robot for the whole match. That is the beauty of hindsight. We also have the wonderful ability of instant replay. How many of you simply watched that video once and drew your opinions from that? Because that ALL the referees had to go from - and worse, they were watching the whole field. Not 10 square feet of it.

So I watched it once. And only once. Here is what I saw.

1114 grabbed a ringer and then went to score while being defended. The other robot (48) was trying to push them around. At several points I, with my referee hat on, became concerned that the pinning was going on too long. In each instance, I saw 48 back away from 1114. Instead of turning, or any other type of maneuver, 1114 backed up with them. Were they off for three seconds? Hard to say, in my "only watched the video once" eye. I didn't have a stopwatch going. As I doubt the refs did. I DO know that 1114 was continually trying score.

But I DID see 48 back off - several times. Whether they did so for 1.5 seconds or 4.5 seconds is truly in the eye of the beholder. During the actual match, I'm sure 1114 was screaming they'd been pinned (their team member near the camera was screaming pin well before 10 seconds were up) while I'm sure team 48 was counting a little more slowly...1....2.....3.... I see several people saying 1114 was pinned the whole time. No they weren't. They continued contact with 48 when 48 backed off. That is not 48's fault, and does not constitute a continuing pin count.

It's the nature of competition. Team 1114's arm was broken. At the point where it was broken, 48 and 1114 were still moving forward. As such, it's very difficult for a ref to say they were pinned - you'd have to realise the entire situation of their arm being stuck. I know I had trouble seeing it. Did 48 know it was going to break as they pushed 1114? I sincerely, sincerely, doubt it. I see quite a few people here drawing judgements from their emotions rather than rationality.

I saw a hard fought match, which upon replay presented some questionable acts. In the heat of the moment, without replay or hindsite, and with the whole field to look at, I suspect I would have made the exact same decisions as the referees.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by Liz Smith

Well, I don't know exactly where you've been trying to referee, but I'm a Sophomore in college and I this year I refereed at 2 regionals (Pittsburgh and NYC) as well as at the Championship Event.

In my opinion, in response to people questioning the referees consistancy, the referees spent most of Thursday at the Championship discussing the rules and the minor details of the game. The head referees spent even longer discussing each and every rule. The referees in this competition are not oblivious to the controversies the come up within the game.

Now, on being informed of the rules. What you think may be inconsistancies with calls, may just be you just not knowing the rules of the game well enough. Besides the referee meeting, there was the drivers meeting at the championship, where the referees and the drivers discussed certain rules and how the calls were going to be made at the event. The drivers meeting answered all the questions that the drivers from the teams in all the divisions had. Unless you were at that entire drivers meeting, I don't think you have a fair say in how a play should have been called. I don't know what makes some of you think that you can trash the referees, maybe its because you think that unlike teams, they don't read CD.. but they do, and maybe you should be a little more careful about what you say about the referees.

First off, what Tom said is right. In our areas (Boston/NJ/UTC/as well as many others), it is all about giving back to the sponsors and who you know. For the most part, they just laugh, and toss the college kids off to the sides. Boston has been the best though, and allowing some of the younger kids more access to privileged areas. Wayne Penn was a fantastic volunteer coordinator, and much can be said about him. The Regionals you attended have a very small volunteer base, and can do things for college kids.
I must agree with Bharat on this one too. When you have almost the whole entire community complaining about inconsistency, something is wrong. I read the rules 3 times over, I'm a 3 year driver, don't tell me I don't know the rules. I have every right to share my displeasure with all. No one has to do anything about it, that is their right too. I plan on speaking very loudly about poor refereeing. It has been getting progressively worse each year, this year was one of the worst I've seen.
We're the consumer, and very unhappy with the product, why shouldn't we speak up?
Note--I posted a thread in the Modded forum to continue discussion about what we think needs to be improved in FIRST, but they have yet to allow it..

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

We're the consumer, and very unhappy with the product, why shouldn't we speak up?

We're not just consumers. We're active participants. We don't just receive services. We perform services. We can't just complain that FIRST needs to improve. We are FIRST.

We shouldn't just speak up. We should take part. We need to make the changes.

The problem seems to be that some of the refs are having problems fulfilling the task given to them. Unless you can find funding to train and maintain a professional corps of FIRST referees, I think the best way to help is to inspire enthusiastic and capable volunteers to step forward. Complaining that the refs are [insert derogatory or insulting adjective here] certainly won't make others want to take on the job.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

We're not just consumers. We're active participants. We don't just receive services. We perform services. We can't just complain that FIRST needs to improve. We are FIRST.

We shouldn't just speak up. We should take part. We need to make the changes.

The problem seems to be that some of the refs are having problems fulfilling the task given to them. Unless you can find funding to train and maintain a professional corps of FIRST referees, I think the best way to help is to inspire enthusiastic and capable volunteers to step forward. Complaining that the refs are [insert derogatory or insulting adjective here] certainly won't make others want to take on the job.

It isn't just complaining that we are doing here. We are trying to see what is wrong and tryign to make everyone aware of what we think needs to be improved. To me, it seems like we have attempted to take part a few times this year, and haven't been responded to very well. In some cases though (algorithm), it wasn't all of the parent company's fault.
It really would not be that hard to train a core group of refs on how to call the game. You can just make a quick video reel of examples of what everything is. There should be more of a requirement to ref, rather than just selecting someone who is high up in a company and you want it to look good. I know many people that could have done a better job this weekend, and would have loved to.

[thoughtful]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

The problem seems to be that some of the refs are having problems fulfilling the task given to them. Unless you can find funding to train and maintain a professional corps of FIRST referees, I think the best way to help is to inspire enthusiastic and capable volunteers to step forward. Complaining that the refs are [insert derogatory or insulting adjective here] certainly won't make others want to take on the job.

I think you are absolutely right. Complaining is not the solution, if there are not enough capable volunteer referees or enough funding, then we need to step up and lead the way. We are a part of this, this is not a resturant where we go to get a meal and expect good customer service. This is an organization, a culture, more importantly our organization and our culture. It reflects our values and we reflect its values, so lets try to make changes for the better starting from ourselves.

Again going back to the topic, I dont think the problem is about refereeing or the pinning penalty, as was eluded by some 1114 members. I am waiting for an explanation of the celebration (of team 48) that was seen by a considerable number of people. I am sure there is a good explanation (I hope) and once we find that explanation we can lay this matter to rest.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by thoughtful

Again going back to the topic, I dont think the problem is about refereeing or the pinning penalty, as was eluded by some 1114 members. I am waiting for an explanation of the celebration (of team 48) that was seen by a considerable number of people. I am sure there is a good explanation (I hope) and once we find that explanation we can lay this matter to rest.

To touch on this, I think the celebration is understandable for one major reason. What do you do, if you have just won the biggest match of your season? You are happy, you cheer. No matter what happened to the other team, any true competitor's first thought is "Oh my goodness, we just won!" Then not until after the fact, would it hit you what happened. I'm not saying 48 was in the right to cheer about the arm breaking, there is no hard evidence on that, but it was fine for them to cheer after the match.

[thoughtful]

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

To touch on this, I think the celebration is understandable for one major reason. What do you do, if you have just won the biggest match of your season? You are happy, you cheer. No matter what happened to the other team, any true competitor's first thought is "Oh my goodness, we just won!" Then not until after the fact, would it hit you what happened. I'm not saying 48 was in the right to cheer about the arm breaking, there is no hard evidence on that, but it was fine for them to cheer after the match.

Have been a driver I understand that after the match is over one would celebrate. That is totaly understandable. However, some reports from this thread report celebration after the arm was broken(as I understand this was during the match) where as other people deny this. I would personally like to hear more eyewitnesses that were there on the scene and saw the presence or absence of this celebration. Because team 1114 has been hurt, and on the otherhand team 48 might be wrongfully blamed. For me the matter hinges on if there was indeed celebration at the breaking of the arm, if yes then there has to be a reasonable and good explanation. So that the two teams can lay this behind them and continue in a GP way from here on.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by thoughtful

Again going back to the topic, I dont think the problem is about refereeing or the pinning penalty, as was eluded by some 1114 members. I am waiting for an explanation of the celebration (of team 48) that was seen by a considerable number of people. I am sure there is a good explanation (I hope) and once we find that explanation we can lay this matter to rest.

Just to clarify, Team 1114 is not looking for an explanation or any sort of public apology. We've received some fragmented justifications via private channels, and we're content to leave it at that. As far as I'm concerned, this matter is at rest.

[Chris Fultz]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Just to clarify, Team 1114 is not looking for an explanation or any sort of public apology. We've received some fragmented justifications via private channels, and we're content to leave it at that. As far as I'm concerned, this matter is at rest.

As I have just spend about an hour reading mostly repeated information about who did what to who and how, along with various comments about referees, rules, FIRST in general and so on and so on,

and the fact that team 1114, quoted above, says "this matter is at rest",

and the expectation that nothing new can / will be added to this debate,

and all that will happen is more people will get upset with more other people


I request that another moderator please close this thread.

"honey, turn the oven off because this cake is done...."

[Steve W]

To allow for others to have their final say, I will close this thread at about 11:30 tonight. I also believe that there is a circular thought in this thread with not too much different being added. If people feel that on going discussion is necessary I will recommend a moderated thread where we don't have to monitor all day.

[Lil' Lavery]

There were incidents of questionable nature on all four fields during the elimination rounds, 2 of which directly affected champions. The most egregious of which happened in this incident on Curie and on Archimedes. While I have not yet been able to find video (or get it from teammates) of the incidents on Galileo or Newton, but I will post video of 254 being tipped on Archimedes (no call). To make matters even more interesting, both this and the 1114 incident happened within 4:49 of each other (actually much less, closer to :45), as the same song is playing in the background (Message in a Bottle by The Police). It is quite possible that the Galileo and Newton incidents also occurred during the same time frame.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Z2XmhRZmMsM
[video coming soon, being approved by Youtube]

Most importantly though, we must not forget that what actually happens on the field is not what is important. Rich Kressley said it very eloquently in this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=56958