Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, what happened?

[Kate00]

I was on the field for that match, and would like to offer my perspective.

1114's arm was clearly bending back, as you can see in the video, and speaking as a defensive driver, when you are pinning someone against the rack, you can generally clearly see their arm and whether or not it is flexing/at the point of breaking. Regardless of whether or not they saw the arm flexing, it was still an excessive use of force. Excessive force is a DQ. There was no DQ.

What I found most despicable was the celebration of 48 after 1114's arm snapped off. You can't see it in the video, but it was clearly seen by several eyewitnesses, myself included. This is entirely against everything that I've ever been taught in the years that I have been in first. I know, I know, compete on the field and cooperate off the field, but celebrating when your opponents arm comes off - clearly using excessive force - that goes beyond "competing" and into "willful destruction," which was not a part of the gracious professionalism that I was taught.

Myself and several other people witnessed 48 trying to break 1114's arm off in Toronto. They then went through the pits bragging about their defense on 1114. They also played defense on 1114 during practice matches both at GTR and Championships, which was clearly witnessed.

As to the "design flaw," in the video, you can clearly see 1114's arm moving the 330 pound + friction rack. In all of the events I was at this year (Waterloo, GTR and Championships), I never saw anyone else move the rack. (Edit: never saw anyone else's arm spin the rack in a circle while attached to a spider leg). Ever. Their arm spun the rack before snapping off. I have not seen the design myself, however, this is in my mind irrefutable proof of the solid design I know that 1114 would produce.

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Kate771

They also played defense on 1114 during practice matches both at GTR and Championships, which was clearly witnessed.

Why should Defensive based bots not be able to practice what they are designed for? Yes i agree to some extent, but the intent of practice is just that, practice. They have just as much of a right to play as their robot is made to do as any other robot.

I will agree with you on some what of a front that excessive D shouldn't be played in practice matches. I see that there are two matches for practice, in one match play D on any team as possible, as much as possible. Maybe match two plays less D and roam around the other end of the field and test new ideas?

In the end, i don't care if you have a purely Offense robot or purely Defense robot; they both have the right to practice what their robot's capabilities are.

[meaubry]

Thanks Steve W. for keeping an eye on this thread - much apprciated.

Everyone - keep this one civil and relavent to the thread topic.
Discuss what happened in an appropriate manner.

I didn't witness it, as I was over at Archimedes at the time.

Carry on

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

In the end, i don't care if you have a purely Offense robot or purely Defense robot; they both have the right to practice what their robot's capabilities are.

There's another thread to discuss defense in practice matches. Let's leave this thread to talk about the direct issues and facts surrounding SF1.3. Thanks.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...e #post608676

[Karthik1]

I will not state my opinion on that (Curie Semifinal 1 - 3) particular match. but in regards to defense in a practice match: I think its is a good practice for teams to inform and request the other teams that they will be defending prior to a practice match. I know that my team 1504 did just that when we played defense in a practice match at nationals.

[Travis Hoffman]

I'm sorry, I've been too busy collecting facts and personal statements from independent sources to really digest the rest of this thread prior to this post. I will leave the replies to those posts to honest people who feel the need to provide factual evidence on this extremely unfortunate situation. One would hope and pray that rumor-mongerers and piler-oners would stay away from this. Some would truly appreciate this gesture of doing and saying nothing.

The following was sent to me from our pit mentor, Donnell, who is notorious for remaining in the pit during elimination rounds due to some strange superstition. I know this doesn't answer all the questions I'm sure are swimming around inside all your little heads right about now, but perhaps this is a good start at finding out the truth about all of this?

"After the robot came back to the pits (after the Curie Finals) I went to congratulate Johnny (Pasco) and he was visibly upset and shaken. I thought he was just exhausted from all the excitement, as his face was red and he had his head down on his arms leaning on the "War Wagon". I put my arm around him and congratulated him on a great season. He just lifted his head up and stared into space and shrugged. I told him to hold his head up because he had a great season as a new driver (winning a regional) and didn't do any worse in Atlanta than we did last year. He just said, "Yeah, but I broke their arm." I asked, whose arm, and he said 1114. This is the first I had heard about the whole incident. I was surprised that this specific incident was bothering him that much considering it was a whole tier of the Curie Finals prior to what he had just completed. Not knowing the severity of the incident, I just told him not to worry about it because everybody's robot gets damaged, especially in the Championship Finals. Pasco said, "No, you don't understand, their arm just snapped in half - I didn't mean to do it and I wasn't trying to do it, I didn't know what happened until it broke." …….he stopped short and said that he didn't want to talk about it anymore, he didn't know what to do…..then he walked away."

************************************************** *************


...

[Nawaid Ladak]

if you watch the video until the end, you will notice, that if there were 3 more seconds given on the field, we wouldn't be talking about this, instead we would be talking about how great of a team 1114 is, facing all that adversity and still able to lift MARS up.

How close they came was almost amazing, it just goes to show HOW GREAT 1114 really was.

also I wanted to know this, im trying to figure this out, but i couldn't find it anywhere, if that ringer that wasn't scored, if that counted, what would have been the final score, that also goes for the 469 descored ringer.

TIA

[Karthik]

I've taken some time to calm down, and now I'm ready to post some facts. I'll leave my opinions out of this, because they're clearly clouded by my emotions. PM me if you want to hear my rambles.

Fact: Team 48 had been posting on CD numerous times about the virtues of defense. You can search for these posts. Not a big deal, since defense is part of the game. Until you put into the context of this match.

Fact: Team 48 "joked" about wanting to play defense on 1114, whille being their partner, so that they could "show off their defense"

Fact: Team 48 nearly ripped 1114's arm off in a qualifying match at the Toronto Regional. They backed away, allowing 1114 to proceed, and score an additional 3 tubes. A mentor from 48 then said (paraphrasing from memory) "If we weren't so concerned about your arm, we could have completely shut you down that match"

Fact: Members of Team 48's driveteam, led by the Drive Coach, celebrated when 1114's arm snapped off. This was witnessed by myself, and numerous members of other teams. If I hadn't seen this with my own eyes, I would not believe it myself.

Fact: After the arm snapped off, 48 stopped playing defense on 1114, making it seem like they knew what had happened

Fact: Multiple Team 48 members told members of 1114 to "look out, we're coming after you" prior to the matchup. Normally we would just assume that meant they were going to defend us. In the context of the match, my feelings are now different.

Fact: Team 48 was booed by a large section of the Curie stands (1114 was not part of this group) when they were announced for their next match. I have never seen this at FIRST event before, and I think it says a lot about how upset people were about this incident.

Fact: 48 pinned 1114 for 34 seconds, without backing up by 3 feet for 3 seconds.

Fact: The head referee was not aware of the 3 feet for 3 seconds rule. Even though this was discussed at the driver's meeting. She actually had to look it up at the scorer's table.

Fact: The head referee said "how do I know your arm was any good", to our Coach and Driver

Those are the facts about many of the situations that have been disputed.

I don't want the ugly incident of this match to take away from the great play of Teams 67 and 1732. Both teams had amazing robots, and displayed a huge amount of class. Members of both teams actually apologized to us about the actions of team 48. This impressed me, and helped me remember why I do FIRST. Then again, I should have expected nothing less from a classy organization like the HOT team.

I'd like to personally thank every team and individual who came to us to express their concern and sympathies about the incident. Having the support of all of you helped our team's emotional psyche.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Karthik

[color=black]

Fact: Members of Team 48's driveteam, led by the Drive Coach, celebrated when 1114's arm snapped off. This was witnessed by myself, and numerous members of other teams. If I hadn't seen this with my own eyes, I would not believe it myself.

I saw this too (I was watching curie elims to support 330) and wasn't sure as to why they were chelebrating...

I am sure they were celebrating, but I can't for sure say that they were cheering because they broke 1114.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by FreedomForce

if you watch the video until the end, you will notice, that if there were 3 more seconds given on the field, we wouldn't be talking about this, instead we would be talking about how great of a team 1114 is, facing all that adversity and still able to lift MARS up.

How close they came was almost amazing, it just goes to show HOW GREAT 1114 really was.

also I wanted to know this, im trying to figure this out, but i couldn't find it anywhere, if that ringer that wasn't scored, if that counted, what would have been the final score, that also goes for the 469 descored ringer.

TIA

Neither the 1114 ringer, nor the 469 ringer would have changed the outcome on their own. If both had been scored it would have created a row of 6 for Blue for a final score of 64-30.

I was not at the Championships, so my comments will be contained to what can be found in the webcast footage.

From the webcast footage, their is not enough coverage of 1114's arm being removed to make any type of judgment on whether it was intentional or not.

The descoring of the ringer by 469 also cannot be seen clearly. When the camera cuts away 469 is still in possession of the tube and when it comes back the tube is being taken off the rack. It is not entirely clear, but it does look like the tube was released at some point and is being taken off from a different angle. I cannot be certain if the tube was fully clear of the 469 mechanism to qualify as a score, but judging by what I can see combined with accounts in this thread that do not appear to have been disputed, this ringer should have counted.

The 1114 ringer definitely looks to be supported by the stinger initially. The point that is not caught on the webcast is the final position of the ringer after being jostled by 469. You can see 469 hit the ringer as they descore their own, but you cannot see if this causes it to clear the stinger or not.

[Arefin Bari]

I was down on the field watching that match with Koko Ed, Joel J. and Travis Hoffman from team 48. This is what I have to say after spending some time with the drive team of 1114.

1) I don't want to be yelled at if I was a coach and I went down there with my driveteam to seek for answers to "Why isn't the ringer scored," or "How were the calls made?"

2) After our machine (that we put our whole heart into for 6 weeks) breaks, I don't want to be questioned about the quality of my robot.

3) I believe everyone was watching the finals on einstein. Please make the playing field leveled.

In my 6 years of involvement in FIRST, this is the first time there were many complains and mistakes. There has to be something done so the kids can enjoy/play the game without having to go back in their pit and cry.

[Kate00]

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

3) I believe everyone was watching the finals on einstein. Please make the playing field leveled.

Originally Posted by Jason Morrella

The DQ called on Einstein for tipping was nowhere near as obvious or intentional as the non call on Archimedes. It's one thing not to call an obvious DQ, but an entirely different thing to then call a DQ for something not nearly as flagrant.

Just speculating here, but perhaps the refs heard about the incidents on both Archimedes and Curie, and may have tried to improve the quality of the reffing for the finals on Einstein. If this is true, I commend them for realizing their mistakes and trying to fix them, and my question then becomes why this only came up for the last two rounds of play in the entire season, and not after 37 regional competitions.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by Kate771

Just speculating here, but perhaps the refs heard about the incidents on both Archimedes and Curie, and may have tried to improve the quality of the reffing for the finals on Einstein. If this is true, I commend them for realizing their mistakes and trying to fix them, and my question then becomes why this only came up for the last two rounds of play in the entire season, and not after 37 regional competitions.

I know I have definitely discussed these reffing issues numerous times before, most notably in the Palmetto Regional thread.

[cziggy343]

Originally Posted by Kate771

Just speculating here, but perhaps the refs heard about the incidents on both Archimedes and Curie, and may have tried to improve the quality of the reffing for the finals on Einstein. If this is true, I commend them for realizing their mistakes and trying to fix them, and my question then becomes why this only came up for the last two rounds of play in the entire season, and not after 37 regional competitions.

there were definantly questionable calls during the 37 regionals, but the mistakes are amplifide once teams get to the championships. many stories could be told about the questionable call at the regionals too.

[Nick 1523]

First of all i was actually there on the field and saw the whole match. What actually happened was (and it's kinda hard to see on the recording but) we (1523) were supposed to play defense while the our partners scored on the rack. While 1114 was being pinned up against the rack their coach was yelling the count for pinning and he got to 10 before they let up and when they backed away it was not for 3 seconds which as i believe is the required amount. As a result of this pinning, backing off and pinning again 1114's arm got wedged up in between the tube and spider leg and was snapped at the joint. 1114 then backed up and broke the wire connections which were the only things left holding the arm on. Now that I look back on it, they probably should have stayed put so as to not get a penalty for "littering the field" but that wouldn't have changed the outcome anyway. There were definitely some bad calls also including the removed keeper which was obviously passed the stinger (or at least it looked that way from behind the driver's station). Over all I'm happy we did as good as we did and I don't hold any grudges or anything... Well that's pretty much what happened and even though we tried to protest it the judge said that it was "not excessive roughness" and the rest is history.