Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, what happened?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Karthik

[color=black]

Fact: Members of Team 48's driveteam, led by the Drive Coach, celebrated when 1114's arm snapped off. This was witnessed by myself, and numerous members of other teams. If I hadn't seen this with my own eyes, I would not believe it myself.

I saw this too (I was watching curie elims to support 330) and wasn't sure as to why they were chelebrating...

I am sure they were celebrating, but I can't for sure say that they were cheering because they broke 1114.

[CJV648]

I am not sure what to think about this incident yet. If the observations about pre-meditation and celebration in post #36 are accurate, disciplinary action of some sort vs team 48 seems to be in order. At what point, if any, did Team 48 apologize for "accidently" breaking 1114's arm? I haven't seen anything about this

[Jay Trzaskos]

Originally Posted by cire

The first round I broke both 1114 and 1503's tank treads off their robots by pushing them sideways. I didnt mean to and I didnt think it would happen, and I definitly felt bad afterwards. I figured they blamed me for doing it on purpose and that I wasnt being GP.

I'm positive this aspect of 1114's 2006 robot has been previously discussed on CD and I even witnessed teams talking about purposefully trying to break their treads at GTR last season in order to shut Simbotics down. This is in no way the topic of the discussion but It will help me illustrate a point later on, I promise.

But I was also standing on the field during Curie Semifinal 1 – 3. I was actually standing behind 48’s driver station during the entire match and would just like to point out that I clearly saw 1114’s arm snap. I also held what was left of the joint that was connected to their robot later that afternoon. It was not a weak joint by any stretch of the imagination. I wouldn’t expect anything less than amazing design, engineering, and fabrication from the crew from team 1114.

But back to what I clearly saw on the field and from team 48’s drive team. After witnessing the arm being snapped from 1114’s tower, I saw team 48’s drive coach with a very large grin on his face and do some sort of hand motion that closely resembled a fist pump behind the wall. I was too surprised at his reaction to look at his drive teams. When the match ended I saw the same man do multiple energetic fist pumps while hunched over slightly and screaming exuberantly. I also witnessed him chuckle as team 1114’s drive team and coach went to try and get an understanding of the Referee’s calling. I admit that I do not believe that 1114’s coach should have approached the Head Ref in this situation, but I can definitely understand his disbelief and anger at their decision.

In my mind and in my opinion this whole situation was unsettling. After the match when I was talking to Karthik with other people down on the floor, he stated, “I like VEX better.” Not because 1114’s FVC team won the FVC World Championship for the second year in a row (Congratulations), but because you would never see such disgraceful actions being shown by anyone that is part of that program. He likes it because, “people are playing the game to score, no intentional destructiveness.” I have mentored FVC for one year, FLL for two, and participated in FRC for six. I can tell you I have never seen anything quite like this before in ANY on of those programs and I hope I never see anything close to it again.

I can understand that teams want to shut down powerhouse teams like Simbotics, WildStang, *ThunderChickens, and Beatty. Whether it me keeping them from hanging (2004), capping (2005), Shooting (2006), or capping (2007). But I lose respect for any team that tries to purposefully hurt their opponents. I know that during my time as a member of 229, and many other teams also do this, I make sure that any damage we may inflict on ANY other team is not too extensive. I also offer the assistance of any member of our team to help fix any damage we may have unintentionally inflicted on any other team. Great team’s do not always have to win, and may lose** because they understand the values of FIRST and strive to meet them. Those teams are the ones I have the highest respect for.


* 237’s tip of 217 in their last qualification match of the day the Friday of Championships comes to mind, but that is for another thread entirely.
** Last year on Einstein when the eventual Championship Finalists used their time out so that the finals would be fair and even. I am positive that that alliance would have won if they had not understood and followed the values that FIRST is designed to instill in individuals.

[Conor Ryan]

The issues with this match seem to revolve around 1114's arm falling off as a result of 48's crazy defense. My instinct tells me that this was definetly excessive ramming, and that the refs that made the call started recounting every single time 1114 found a way to move a little bit (less than 3 seconds). By that logic it was ok, but it looks like 48 held contact continuously which i personally feel is grounds for excessive ramming. The penalty could of been much larger here.

The second part here, when 1114's arm was still hanging on to the tube on the rack, I'd rule as a scored ringer, because when parts (particularly those pesky flag holders) fall off robots and they get up ramps, the robot counts as being on the ramp despite the flag holder left on the carpet somewhere. I'd say 1114 didn't intentionally leave their arm on the rack so the tube should of counted.

But the ruling stands, 1732, 67, 48 win over 1114, 1523, 469, 30-10

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by CJV648

At what point, if any, did Team 48 apologize for "accidently" breaking 1114's arm? I haven't seen anything about this

At the request of Karthik himself, I went behind the curtain and talked to whomever was in their pit at the time. I was visibly upset over watching and hearing the arm break, and up til that point, I was not sure how to proceed. I was glad Karthik provided me the opportunity to approach his team. When I arrived at their pit area, it was at this point I apologized for what had happened. Shortly after that, I was gently asked by 1114's field coach to leave their pit. It was obvious he was distraught over the entire situation. Several separate attempts from our various team members to approach the team with regrets were met with uninviting stares or rebukes, including at the team wrap party, so we all thought it best to leave them alone the rest of the night.....and beyond.

[Vogel648]

Was the arm being supported by the arm which was supported by the spider leg? If it is so, then it is correct that it should not count imho, because it is being supported by a field element other than the spider leg.*

Also, we had something somewhat similar, if not as agregious, happened to us in our first Qualifying Match at Midwest. Team 858 pushed us into the arm and we started going up on 2 wheels then they kept pushing and we ended up on our backs. It was not penalized then either. It seems to me both of these are consistant, though I think both of them should have been penalties.

* Note I do not know this is the case, pure speculation.

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

The second part here, when 1114's arm was still hanging on to the tube on the rack, I'd rule as a scored ringer, because when parts (particularly those pesky flag holders) fall off robots and they get up ramps, the robot counts as being on the ramp despite the flag holder left on the carpet somewhere. I'd say 1114 didn't intentionally leave their arm on the rack so the tube should of counted.

But the ruling stands, 1732, 67, 48 win over 1114, 1523, 469, 30-10

You might have missed my earlier post that stated that the weight of the tube was not supported by the leg like it was stated in the rules and even pointed out at Kickoff. It was supported by the stinger and the plate on the end of the leg, thus not legally scored.

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

so we all thought it best to leave them alone the rest of the night.....and beyond.

I'd hate to see a relationship between two teams be ruined because of one instance. If a team wants to win, that's fine. You get one chance to win. You can fix an arm anytime.

That's just how I feel...

[Gertlex]

Sure this post might just be viewed as saving face, but whatever.

Originally Posted by Jay Trzaskos

I'm positive this aspect of 1114's 2006 robot has been previously discussed on CD and I even witnessed teams talking about purposefully trying to break their treads at GTR last season in order to shut Simbotics down. This is in no way the topic of the discussion but It will help me illustrate a point later on, I promise.

That is of course, my comment you link to. I'll link the misperception of my intent in that post primarily to a misuse of the smiley.

My real meaning, I believe, was trying to state how I felt as I watched the disabling of those two of the triplets. It was definitely more of a "holy... did we just do that?!?!" than anything whatsoever like "come-on driver, ram their robots over and over." I didn't even know this was a weakness of the triplets until that match.

I will also state that I was indeed not a fan of seeing identical robots at the regionals. That was probably the biggest factor in any hostility in my post.

None of this is the subject of the thread, so if you feel a need to argue with me for whatever (probably stupid) reason, use PMs.

[xzvrw2]

Originally Posted by InfernoX14

On the part of the ring that 1114's arm was attached to:

Judging from the webcast video, it looks like the ring's weight isn't being supported by the leg itself. It seems that it's being supported by the plate on the end of the leg.

Just an answer for those people who believe the ring should be scored.

i am not talking about the keeper. i am talking about the ringer that 1114 was scoring when their arm broke.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by FreedomForce

if you watch the video until the end, you will notice, that if there were 3 more seconds given on the field, we wouldn't be talking about this, instead we would be talking about how great of a team 1114 is, facing all that adversity and still able to lift MARS up.

How close they came was almost amazing, it just goes to show HOW GREAT 1114 really was.

also I wanted to know this, im trying to figure this out, but i couldn't find it anywhere, if that ringer that wasn't scored, if that counted, what would have been the final score, that also goes for the 469 descored ringer.

TIA

Neither the 1114 ringer, nor the 469 ringer would have changed the outcome on their own. If both had been scored it would have created a row of 6 for Blue for a final score of 64-30.

I was not at the Championships, so my comments will be contained to what can be found in the webcast footage.

From the webcast footage, their is not enough coverage of 1114's arm being removed to make any type of judgment on whether it was intentional or not.

The descoring of the ringer by 469 also cannot be seen clearly. When the camera cuts away 469 is still in possession of the tube and when it comes back the tube is being taken off the rack. It is not entirely clear, but it does look like the tube was released at some point and is being taken off from a different angle. I cannot be certain if the tube was fully clear of the 469 mechanism to qualify as a score, but judging by what I can see combined with accounts in this thread that do not appear to have been disputed, this ringer should have counted.

The 1114 ringer definitely looks to be supported by the stinger initially. The point that is not caught on the webcast is the final position of the ringer after being jostled by 469. You can see 469 hit the ringer as they descore their own, but you cannot see if this causes it to clear the stinger or not.

[Steve W]

Thank you for keeping this civil.

That said I would like to comment on the "scored ringer". Myself and another FIRSTer watched both the soap108 video and the Google video. After playing over and over for more than 30 minutes I have come to the conclusion that neither video gives 100% proof of 1114's arm and ringer either being on the 8 leg or off. There is also no video evidence for the de-scored ringer on leg 7. If there are other videos the have conclusive proof, please post a link.

[MasterChief1732]

Originally Posted by Adam McLeod

For those of you who are curious, and I know many of you are, here's a link to footage of Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, in which 1114, 469 and 1523 are eliminated.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...23692796016767

Notice that 1114 is pinned for about 30 seconds, then driven into (hard) while their arm is tangled in the rack by team 48. Of course, the arm snaps in half, which is to be expected from what seems to me to be an intentional decision to do just that.

Note that there was a ten point penalty in this match for pinning, and no penalty at all for anything else.

If you watch the robots carefully, 1114 was never pinned against the rack for 30 seconds. Team 48 backed off every once in a while and towards the end 1114 was sideways against the rack and could have driven away. It is unfortunate that thier arm came off and there was a scoring problem, but what happened cannot be changed.

Just somthing i saw: I noticed that after the match a student from team 1114 was going confront team 48 in an aggressive manner. The student was restrained by what looked like a bystander or another member of 1114. The result of this match should not end in ill feelings towards other teams since we all know this is just a game and there is always next year.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by MasterChief1732

If you watch the robots carefully, 1114 was never pinned against the rack for 30 seconds. Team 48 backed off every once in a while and towards the end 1114 was sideways against the rack and could have driven away.

Team 48 never backed off by 3 feet for 3 seconds, as specified in the rule. As such, the count should not have been broken. Unfortunately, the count did no begin for at least 15 seconds, and was stopped after a short backup.

I am not sure what to think about this incident yet. If the observations about pre-meditation and celebration in post #36 are accurate, disciplinary action of some sort vs team 48 seems to be in order. At what point, if any, did Team 48 apologize for "accidently" breaking 1114's arm? I haven't seen anything about this

A few members apologized, but none took responsibility for the incident. A few suggested that we "build a tougher arm next year."

The incident is over and done with, and by no means are we expecting or looking for any sort of formal apology.

[rourke]

Sadly, I concur with Karthik’s fact statements, having witnessed the match at field-side, then later watching the videos, and all-the-while feeling uncomfortable with Team 48’s pre-championship claims on defensive manoeuvres – particularly using 1114 as an example.

However, what is done is done. FIRST is a microcosm of the real world. And this is just another example of what happens in the real world. Every day we read about things that don’t seem fair. Every day we see companies and governments that take action or make decisions that unfairly impact others – whether it is trade practices, employment equity, currency manipulation, or judgement errors.

In great companies, leaders take accountability for the actions of their team. In similar situations, leaders resign from key posts as a sign that they accept responsibility. I respectfully request that the leadership of Team 48 assess the role of the coach to determine if it is appropriate for him to continue in his role.

- Steve

[MasterChief1732]

I dont know what the specific rule is but you will notice that each time 48 backed up from the rack 1114 went with them. Therefore its just like two robots pushing eachother in the middle of the field. The timing for each pin was more like 7-8 seconds and that means that they did not need to move back three feet for three seconds, its only when its for 10 seconds. This could be due to certain refs. Example: when a robot gets pinned for 5 seconds and the robot doing the pinning backs away the refs usually stop the count and begin a new one if they pin them again.