Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, what happened?

[PatrickN]

Originally Posted by Karthik

The failure was a stress failure, the tube was actually stretched and torn apart, not twisted. Yes, an aluminum tube was ripped apart.

Aluminium... what is that a mere 450 MPa ultimate yield? The mystery of the technical awards shutout is solved...

[Vogel648]

From a third person prespective it seemed inflamatory to me as well. *shrug* I guess it's just a misunderstanding.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by CJV648

What happened is the reason why we will only get one tiny drivetrain motor in next year's game.

A little humor is good. Why is he getting neg reps?

[KTorak]

Let's stop negative repping others, especially new members into the ground for their opinion just because you don't agree. Negative repping is for malicious posts, posts/topics in bad-taste, misleading information, or false information.

On the other hand, they are just dots.

But let's not let this get out of hand so it has to be closed and/or moderated. So with that, sit back, take a deep breath, and think about what you post before you post it so you don't regret saying something later because it was a spur of the moment strike against someone else.

[scipio]

Once again i would like to point out that every 48 backed off 1114, 1114 backed up w/ them therefor when 48 resumed defence, they were in violation of the rules...although 1114's arm braking off is unfortunate, sometimes that is just the result of of rough play in a very rough match...

[Jay Shah]

Originally Posted by Karthik

As for simple to repair, we had our spare arm on the robot and ready to compete in 15 minutes, just in case the ruling was overturned.

Ok, I know I'm a little off-topic here, but I want to recognize what Karthik said here. Read it, read it carefully.

I want to congradulate 1114's team for being such darn good designers! In my 5 years doing this I've seen my fair share of robot damage, some as major as a ripped arm, and I've never even thought that it could be repaired with such speed. (In addition to the fact that their arm moved the rack!) Just take a second, and think about what an insane feat of engineering that is!


(I'm not going to take an opinion here, not because I'm not supposed to, but because I think I'm rather emotional about both 1114 and 48. We lost to 48 in GTR after a lot of defense, in which our robot broke (I'm not blaming anyone). And 610 and 1114 have had a lot of history over the past 2 years, playing together, playing against each other. So I have lots of strong feelings on both sides, I don't want that to get in the way of an interpretation of this particular incident)

Just wanted to point out the awesome engineering/design work.

[EnderWiggin]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

They were going full out and drove right through 1114 while their arm was clearly tangled in the rack. This 10 seconds proves to me that yes, 48 was pinning. Also seeing 48 drive through 1114 like that while they were obviously tangled in the rack for 5-6 seconds till the point where the arm broke is something I doubt you would do (or I would let you do as operator).

From a viewer you see 1114 as being tangled in the rack. As a driver and strategist I see them as trying to score, trying to complete a row that's going to lose the match for my alliance.

So what is pinning exactly? I see it as one team blocking a team against a solid structure as to prevent them from doing anything. Something swinging around and movable (especially something you are trying to score on) should hardly count. Remember in '06 when you were allowed to pin indefinitely on the ramp? The same mentality should still apply and I think that's how the refs were thinking.

The real problem here isn't robot design or play, it's the game itself. FIRST should have known better than to make game structures that extend at a perfect height to clothesline a robot or to snap an arm off. The enclosed space makes things even worse.

"Aim High" was designed with gameplay in mind, something they apparently forgot with Rack 'n Roll. I hope FIRST takes the same '06 approach next year.

[Jonathan Norris]

Ok let me pose a different situation with very similar circumstances, but hopefully less emotions involved. At GTR we faced 379, 48, and 1006 in the quarter finals, a very similar pushing match happened while we were trying to score on the rack. Luckily our arm did not allow for the type of movement (yay worm gears!) that 1114's did, and it did not seriously damage our arm (though it was banged up).

http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...p?matchid=3061

The situation was that we were trying to score and you can see from about 1:18 to about 1:40 'pushing' against us while we were trying to score, Effectively pinning us. This is very similar to the situation that happened against 1114 on the Curie field. Should this have been called pinning, because that is the question that I have been arguing with people for the last couple hours over this situation.

I thought I would propose we discuss this question over a less emotional match (in no way am I mad or angry at 48 over our match against them, hey we won the match). I am just trying to maybe propose a situation where the situation is the same but the end result is not as ugly.

[J Flex 188]

Easy now everyone, remember what everyone else has been talking about the entire time about posting without emotion and being as objective as possible. Posts like this below that are poorly formed and don't quote any specific source other than the fact that they are "in violation of the rules" do not serve any purpose in this thread and only further increase the likelihood that more lines will be drawn in the sand without proper understanding of the situation, or at least as close as it can come. I will guarantee you that you cannot cite a source in the rules that states that a robot backing up when another robot is playing defence on them is in violation of anything.

Lastly, no amount of rough play justifies being a piece of machinery as significant and as large as an arm being torn off. If that were your robot, think about how you would feel.

Originally Posted by scipio

Once again i would like to point out that every 48 backed off 1114, 1114 backed up w/ them therefor when 48 resumed defence, they were in violation of the rules...although 1114's arm braking off is unfortunate, sometimes that is just the result of of rough play in a very rough match...

[Vogel648]

There were a number of problems with aim high as well, including but not limited to, the overbalancing of autonomous modes, the fact that experienced teams that knew how to use the camera had a huge advantage in both regular and autonomous play, and various other thing. Overall I think the game this year was a solid one that would have real world aplications.

[Kate00]

Karthik:
Fact: After the arm snapped off, 48 stopped playing defense on 1114, making it seem like they knew what had happened

Carl:
Just because they knew what happened doesn't make them guilty! It may be hard to see from behind the rack and across the field, but sounds travels fine and I'm sure they hear the crack and saw the arm dangling from the ringer...
They stopped playing defense on 1114 because playing defense against a bot that can't score isn't much use. Or would it be more "graciously professional" to pretend like they still did?

Karthik:
Team 48 denies knowing that the arm snapped off, this is what I am disputing. I agree it doesn't make them guilty of showing intent, but it does show that the knew the arm broke off, that's all.

Originally Posted by Vogel648

I believe you are misrepresenting what he's saying, as far as I can tell what he's saying is he didn't realize that your arm was about to fail before it did. Of course I could be wrong, in which case I would apreciate you pointing me to the post in which it was said.

Thanks
-nrv.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think you're trying to say is Karthik is misinterpreting what Carl is saying, and what Carl is saying is that Carl didn't realize that 1114's arm was about to fail before it did?

Carl is not on 48, let alone their driveteam. I don't understand how you think he could not have realized their arm was going to break before it did. In the video, the arm clearly moves the rack, flexes, and then the aluminum tubing snaps. I don't understand how 48 could have failed to see the rack spinning, the spider legs pushed all to one side, and thought "oh, this is normal and fine." 48 then clearly pulls off after the snap, like they recognized what they did. I don't understand what the issue is. Please clarify.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

So what is pinning exactly? I see it as one team blocking a team against a solid structure as to prevent them from doing anything. Something swinging around and movable (especially something you are trying to score on) should hardly count. Remember in '06 when you were allowed to pin indefinitely on the ramp? The same mentality should still apply and I think that's how the refs were thinking.

Back to the rule, pinning is "inhibit[ing] the movement of another ROBOT while in contact with a field element or border". It doesn't say it has to be something rigid; spider legs are certainly field elements. The reason that pinning was not called against the ramp last year was because the ramp was considered part of the floor, not a field element. That may not have been clear in the initial rules, but it was cleared up mid-year and I believe it was called consistently across regionals.

[Rich Ross]

this may be a small amount off topic, but as i have never seen said snapping of aluminum, i was wondering if 1114 has some pictures of the snapped arm. I would like to see what said breaking looks like.


I just hope that this all gets worked out for the best, although it seems less than possible at this point.

[Tyler 783]

Ok I don't normaly post, but I beleive this thread warrents a post. I'll state right now I am not taking sides, I'm actualy not going to say anything about what calls were made, or what people 'should have done'. I'm just going to try and put some things in perspective.

Ok for those of you who don't know me (or at least don't know me by name) I have been (for the past two years) the Lead Team Queuer of the the GTR and the Waterloo regional, so in this capacity I have had a chance to talk to pretty much every drive team of every team who has competed at those two regionals. I was also on my own teams' Drive team for 3 years, so I also know the exitement and adrenaline of the action on the feild.

Ok now to the two points that I wanted to talk about.

Firstly since I wasn't there and have only watched the match once I do not think it fair for me to make any claims as such. What I realy want to talk about is the excitment of the moment, I know from my years driving the robot that during the competition you are very very excited. Some things you do in this state you may regret latter on. Also that in this state you are more then likley to become excited when there is a sudden advantage you have gained. I know from personal experience from driving the robot that during matches I've become excited at times, that in hindsight I beleive I should not have for various reasons. I don't beleive that in times like these that most people (not all but most) could do things that wouldn't be in character. I beleive that the way that things are handeled after the situation are more important, and the feelings of regret are sometimes almost punishment enough.

Secondly everyone seems to be going on hard about the refing. You have to remember that there are only a limited number of referees watching any one given feild, and that all the referees are volunteers. I know personaly from volunteering that at everymoment I try my best to make sure everything happens the way it should be and try my best to do the job assigned for me. I am sure that it is the same for all of the other volunteers in FIRST. This being said what more would you want to have seen done?

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie

Back to the rule, pinning is "inhibit[ing] the movement of another ROBOT while in contact with a field element or border". It doesn't say it has to be something rigid; spider legs are certainly field elements. The reason that pinning was not called against the ramp last year was because the ramp was considered part of the floor, not a field element. That may not have been clear in the initial rules, but it was cleared up mid-year and I believe it was called consistently across regionals.

Sometimes the referee's did not even know when a RINGER/KEEPER was SCORED. It is hard for them to make even complex calls like those. I am sorry for what happen to 1114. Hopefully FIRST will resolve their issues and make some changes next season.