Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, what happened?

[AdamHeard]

A few points I would like to make;

Do not argue what something "should" be, or what you would have done to win; The rules are the rules, and they are pretty literal in this sense.

Do not say that 1114 should have made their arm stronger. I am willing to bet money that 1114's arm is more robust than 90% of the other teams out there (the only one that is definitely more robust in my mind is 330, but that's because I have a lot of experience with them. I'm sure there are others as well).

The facts are that it looks pretty much like 48 tried to break 1114. I have a hard time believing this in FIRST, especially from a veteran and high caliber team, but I saw with my own eyes what happened. At first, I though I must be crazy; but when well respected members of the FIRST community (Karthik, Jay, etc...) claim to have seen the exact same thing, it is hard to think otherwise.

I would like to hear what the coach and drivers for 48 have to say about this.

They either were playing with the intent to break 1114, or were playing extremely rough with no regards to the consequences.

[CJV648]

People who have talked about the reffing have missed a subtle point about the use of red/yellow cards. IMHO the problem was not so much that 48 did not receive a red card in SF1-3, but that it and a couple of other teams had not received yellows for rough play earlier in qualifying that would have toned down the rough play the way good refs do in soccer. 48's qualifying rounds were rough enough that when I saw 48 get picked I was pretty sure robots would be broken in eliminations, though I didn't expect anything as dramatic as what happened. If the red/yellow card system is used again next year FIRST should encourage refs to use the yellow card a lot more often and prepare them to listen to the ensuing whining from coaches/players.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by J Flex 188

Lastly, no amount of rough play justifies being a piece of machinery as significant and as large as an arm being torn off.

The force and aggression 48 exerted was extremely great to cause the joint break and rack shift. I feel the rack movement is a combination of 1114's robust (yes, I said robust) design and a "greasier" rack that seemed increasingly easier to move as the regional weeks moved on. This is the action and accompanying sound that sickened me when I first saw it happen. After watching the video in more detail, however, 1114's action of backing up following the break did a substantial amount of the separating and final amputation. It appears once they realized their arm was broken, they did what was necessary to extract themselves from the ringer to go continue to be productive on the other side of the field. I would expect nothing less from such fierce competitors. I think the act of 1114 helping to sever their own arm is important to note, considering everyone is attaching the "vicious" appearance of the entire process solely to 48's robot.

Also, a few other observations having studied the video, purely from the DRIVER'S point of view.

• The middle spider was almost full at the time this happened, so visibility was limited, especially for a kid who's really not that tall.
• If you look, the difference in position between the "I have a ringer and I want to score on the middle spider" arm position and the "I'm being pushed into the middle spider by a defender" arm position isn't all that significant, and much of the arm is obscured by ringers already scored at the height of the middle spider level.
• The announcer didn't indicate he was aware of the broken arm until 1114 started ripping away from the part still attached to the spider leg. His attention may have been diverted elsewhere for a few moments, but his vantagepoint was unquestionably better than our driver's. If he didn't notice this until later, is it out of the question to believe our driver couldn't tell the arm was broken?
• Finally, I can never really tell if the blue ringer was ever officially scored per the rules. At the end, when 1114's arm was dangling off of it, the ringer was perched on top of the "stinger". Does this count as being scored? I really don't know - we aren't in the business of scoring ringers (save for an attempt to score a keeper in auton on Thursday).

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by CJV648

People who have talked about the reffing have missed a subtle point about the use of red/yellow cards. IMHO the problem was not so much that 48 did not receive a red card in SF1-3, but that it and a couple of other teams had not received yellows for rough play earlier in qualifying that would have toned down the rough play the way good refs do in soccer. 48's qualifying rounds were rough enough that when I saw 48 get picked I was pretty sure robots would be broken in eliminations, though I didn't expect anything as dramatic as what happened. If the red/yellow card system is used again next year FIRST should encourage refs to use the yellow card a lot more often and prepare them to listen to the ensuing whining from coaches/players.

Anyone who has watched basketball games where the referees "let the players play" by not blowing the whistle on minor contact will attest that the level of aggressiveness will increase dramatically. In some cases, the games will get out of control as players retaliate for the previous "non-foul" contact. For the referees, once a potential foul is ignored, the next one is harder to call.

This sort of behavior isn't restricted to sports: the space shuttle disasters (Challenger and Columbia) had early warning signs (blow-by of solid booster o-rings and debris falling from the external tank). These anomalies were noted in the program, but were considered not quite bad enough to stop the launches. This effect wasn't fully appreciated until the disasters occurred. It's human nature to build tolerance to risky behavior until something catastrophic occurs. Only then do people see the trend and wonder why it wasn't caught earlier...

We build robots, but we control them with humans. Mistakes will happen.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

FIRST Teams are asked to be more and more professional as the years come by, and yet the infrastructure itself remains very amateurish.

The relevant infrastructure here is composed of amateurs. They're volunteers. To provide a consistently professional infrastructure would require professionally-paid workers, professional-quality training, and ongoing professionally-supervised evaluations. I doubt increasing the fees paid by teams to cover these costs would go over well.

As FIRST grows, teams are increasingly demanding better service. Can't it instead be that the teams can increasingly provide what they want FIRST to have? With more teams and more involvement, there ought to be a correspondingly higher pool of enthusiastic and capable volunteers.

A challenge to those of you grumbling about the refereeing this year: Be a referee next year. If you don't take some responsibility for improving the situation, try not to be upset if it doesn't change to your liking.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

A challenge to those of you grumbling about the refereeing this year: Be a referee next year. If you don't take some responsibility for improving the situation, try not to be upset if it doesn't change to your liking.

I'd like to be a referee. Unfortunately, all of the events in my area aren't very fond of college folks having ref spots. Or maybe its just me.

[65_Xero_Huskie]

I was on Galileo's field when this happened and a mentor came over and said that 1114's arm was destroyed. I thought to myself that i was thinking this would happen this year. In GLR i remember thinking to myself that their arm is out in the open and could easily be damaged if they were to get played defense on. Our arm also got badly damaged in the Finals on Galileo, but thats no ones fault. My feelings on this is that things happen and there should be no hard feelings towards anyone next year. 48 is known for their defense and i would not want them to go easy on 1114 (especially because they can put up ringers like crazy).

[xzvrw2]

Ok I think we need get off of the topic of 48 breaking 1114s arm. I am not going to say what my opinion is on it, i think that it is not needed for this thread, and if you really want to know it pm me and i will tell you. But the main thing that should be addressed here is why the ringer was not scored. The ringer with 1114s completly broken off arm still attached to it. I would like to know why it was scored as it was. I dont know if it is in the rules that says that the arm, that is completly off of the robot, is still apart of it, but from what i hear, the arm is apart of the feild now and therefore apart of the ringer. meaning that the ringer should have been scored. i dont know if it would have made a difference in the match, but i think that someone needs to look in to it. i cant right now because i am ogoing to be having breakfast with my grandparents...we are having eggs bacon and toast...it should be yummy..im excited...haha

[rick.oliver]

Originally Posted by Adam McLeod

For those of you who are curious, and I know many of you are, here's a link to footage of Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, in which 1114, 469 and 1523 are eliminated.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...23692796016767

Notice that 1114 is pinned for about 30 seconds, then driven into (hard) while their arm is tangled in the rack by team 48. Of course, the arm snaps in half, which is to be expected from what seems to me to be an intentional decision to do just that.

Note that there was a ten point penalty in this match for pinning, and no penalty at all for anything else.

I can certainly understand the frustration and dissappointment. The video does not support your arguement. And, your assertion that Delphi Elite played with the intent to break 1114 is not consistent with my experience with Team 48 in both Pittsburgh and Cleveland. In Pittsburgh, we ran against them in a Qualifying Match and with them in the Elimination Rounds. In Cleveland, we ran with them in a Qualifying Match and against them in the Finals. In all cases they played defense hard and within the rules.

This is a game, and only a game. It is a wonderful opportunity to learn lessons that will help us grow and improve - in life. There are some great lessons here; find them and apply them.

[MarsBOtkid]

Alright ill give my two sense. I am the operator for 1523. AS the other team started pinning 1114 we were screaming 1 2 3 4 5 all the way until 13 or 14 of them pinning 1114. The arm did eventually snap and no penalty was given except one 10pt for pinning. At the beggining of the round in Auton i am almost positive more then 50% of the ringer was on the spyder leg. Yet the judge "elboed it off". Stuff happened that match that is in the past and it was a fun experience. Improvements can be made though.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Tyler 783

Firstly since I wasn't there and have only watched the match once I do not think it fair for me to make any claims as such. What I realy want to talk about is the excitment of the moment, I know from my years driving the robot that during the competition you are very very excited. Some things you do in this state you may regret latter on. Also that in this state you are more then likley to become excited when there is a sudden advantage you have gained. I know from personal experience from driving the robot that during matches I've become excited at times, that in hindsight I beleive I should not have for various reasons. I don't beleive that in times like these that most people (not all but most) could do things that wouldn't be in character. I beleive that the way that things are handeled after the situation are more important, and the feelings of regret are sometimes almost punishment enough.

I fully agree with this observation - claiming a "fact" that another team wanted to damage your robot based on their subsequent celebration is inappropriate and incorrect.

At UCF regional we had our arm ripped off by another robot (Barry Bonzack's team). Ours was definitely not robust enough, but it was repaired in time for the next match. Although I didn't watch them, I would imagine that Barry's team was excited and probably cheered when it happened because it is pretty cool to see, even though our field team was probably sick about it at the time because of the time they had put into the robot. I started laughing when I saw it from the stands (although I didn't design the joint I designed the arm) because it made for great drama, but I then ran down to get repairs started. Barry and crew came up afterward to see what they could do, and they gave us pneumatic tubing we needed for the repair.

I've been in the same boat before. S.P.A.M has NEVER had a strategy aimed at damaging another robot, but it has happened due to the rigors of competition. Having a strong drive train means you play strong defense so it is bound to happen.

Don't read intentions into initial reactions.

Originally Posted by Kate771

Excessive force is a DQ. There was no DQ

Hmmmm..... I must have missed that one in the rule book. Can you point me toward it?

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by MarsBOtkid

At the beggining of the round in Auton i am almost positive more then 50% of the ringer was on the spyder leg. Yet the judge "elboed it off".

In order to be HANGING, the ring must be fully supported by the spider leg, not by the spider foot and/or robot. The referee (not judge!) was 100% correct in removing the keeper. READ THE RULES!!!

[MarsBOtkid]

Originally Posted by David Brinza

In order to be HANGING, the ring must be fully supported by the spider leg, not by the spider foot and/or robot. The referee (not judge!) was 100% correct in removing the keeper. READ THE RULES!!!

You dont need to get mad about it "READ THE RULES" trust me ive read them more then once. You were not in the position that all of us were in. We should of had a re-match yet we could not. Yet when 330 played in the finals and their arm broke off they got a re-match. That is what disapoints us most!!!

[MarsBOtkid]

Like i said overall the oposing alliance was an excellent alliance

[Liz Smith]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

I'd like to be a referee. Unfortunately, all of the events in my area aren't very fond of college folks having ref spots. Or maybe its just me.

Well, I don't know exactly where you've been trying to referee, but I'm a Sophomore in college and I this year I refereed at 2 regionals (Pittsburgh and NYC) as well as at the Championship Event.

In my opinion, in response to people questioning the referees consistancy, the referees spent most of Thursday at the Championship discussing the rules and the minor details of the game. The head referees spent even longer discussing each and every rule. The referees in this competition are not oblivious to the controversies the come up within the game.

Now, on being informed of the rules. What you think may be inconsistancies with calls, may just be you just not knowing the rules of the game well enough. Besides the referee meeting, there was the drivers meeting at the championship, where the referees and the drivers discussed certain rules and how the calls were going to be made at the event. The drivers meeting answered all the questions that the drivers from the teams in all the divisions had. Unless you were at that entire drivers meeting, I don't think you have a fair say in how a play should have been called. I don't know what makes some of you think that you can trash the referees, maybe its because you think that unlike teams, they don't read CD.. but they do, and maybe you should be a little more careful about what you say about the referees.