Einstein?

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by pakratt1991

accually you are not allowed to do this,
when the ppofs decided before the first quarterfinal match that they did not want us on their alliance they tried substituting us but the refs would not let them because our robot worked perfectly. As it turns out that same thing has happened before and now to substitute a robot out it needs to be broken.

How did the Refs rule that one though?
How are they sure you aren't broken?
If I was 254/494, I would've protested it. It isn't up to the refs to determine it.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

How did the Refs rule that one though?
How are they sure you aren't broken?
If I was 254, I would've protested it.

For the record, 494 was the alliance captain, and they were the ones who approached the head referee.

It was a consensus among both teams.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by pakratt1991

accually you are not allowed to do this,
when the ppofs decided before the first quarterfinal match that they did not want us on their alliance they tried substituting us but the refs would not let them because our robot worked perfectly. As it turns out that same thing has happened before and now to substitute a robot out it needs to be broken.

I would consider lifts that only raise to 11-3/4" to be broken, unless of course they were designed to lift to this height.

[Marc P.]

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

How did the Refs rule that one though?
How are they sure you aren't broken?
If I was 254/494, I would've protested it. It isn't up to the refs to determine it.

When the situation was brought up, someone pulled out the rule book and pointed to 9.4.3:

Of the remaining eligible teams, the highest seeded teams (up to eight) shall remain on standby and be ready to play as a BACKUP TEAM. If a ROBOT from any team in an elimination match ALLIANCE becomes inoperable the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN is presented the option of having the highest seeded BACKUP TEAM join the ALLIANCE. The resulting ALLIANCE would then be composed of four teams, but only three teams will be permitted to continue with match play. The inoperable team remains part of the ALLIANCE for awards but can not play, even if their ROBOT is repaired.

As long as a robot can move about and function as it had throughout the tournament up to that point, I'd say it was operable.

[Corey Balint]

My determination here though, is that "inoperable" means unable to preform to their fullest. Therefore if a ramp has been failing, they are "inoperable". If there arm gets torn off, they are "inoperable".

[Greg Marra]

Originally Posted by Marc P.

As long as a robot can move about and function as it had throughout the tournament up to that point, I'd say it was operable.

If an alliance decided it was in their best interest, they could make a robot very inoperable very quickly.

[henryBsick]

The status of a robot as defined per 'operable' and 'inoperable' is not defined in the terms section of the rules so the ruling should.... go to the refs?
As I see the rule, I would say that that term is undefined and becomes a judgement call which is the refs responsibility to determine.
I am now challenging the rules of the game in asking how is it the refs responsibility to determine whether 1 out of the 80 odd robots he or she has seen that day to be operable or not? Shouldn't that call be the call of the alliance captain?
Hopping more into the frying pan, where would the ref (if left to his or her disgression) draw the line for operability?

[pakratt1991]

I'm not sure how exactly they made the judgment on this one, I was not the alliance captain and I was not included in on the talks. I'm sure they had a reason for their call but you would have to ask the team member from 494 how they decided a broken robot from a working one,


and BTW our ramps had always (in 2 regionals and so far at nationals) been given 12 inches, the only times they had not at nationals was when one team went off the back and was hanging down and the other time 1662 broke off their arm and had it dangling off the side.

[FierceRabbit]

Hmm interesting...


It was brought up to me that the "Head" mentor of 494 Had a 20 minute talk with the "head" mentor of 997 after everything was over...



The story goes...

Throughout duration of the competition 494 thought highly of 997. When it came time for alliance selections 494 was ranked number 1. They chose the poofs. The 3rd round came back to 494. The "setup" they wanted was two scoring robots, and a "pushing" robot. According to the poofs, 997 was on the "do not pick list" because they could not fit on their ramps and did not lift the poofs to a full 12 inches. The rep from 494 "didn't see it" and chose 997 without thinking twice.

When Quarterfinal match came round' 254, 494, and 997 were about to enter the field. I was on the floor taking pictures when I hear 997 is to be substituted. The excuse was that the ramps didnt work right. My initial reaction was....(several obscenities)

As you all know the ruling was to keep 997 in the picture and go on with the matches.

(during one of the quarterfinal matches) I looked at EJ (mentor from 254) straight in the eyes and asked him what the deal was. He told me that it was 494's decision to substitute 997 and that they really never gave an excuse for it, taking the poofs out of the picture. interesting....

The matches continued on to the semi's and eventually this alliance was eliminated. Not due to the fact that both 254 and 494 were not lifted to a height of 12 inches + but....to the fact that the poofs could not stay on their feet...2 rounds in a row. Both 997 and 494 did their best to hold off both alliances. blah blah blah you all watched the rounds.

When 997 was packing up the robot a The "head" mentor from 997 wanted to get the truth on this whole saga and went over to 494. The mentor from 484 proceeded to tell situation of how the 254 did not want 997 in the first place because they could not lift to a full 12 inches, and they convinced/concurred 494 to sub them out at the beginning of the round.

An extremely successful team like 254 has a lot of "Power" so to speak when it comes to running a finals alliance team. They are/were respected for it.

What that tells me is that EJ straight up lied to me about 254 not being involved in the substitution process. Ugh? am i confused....did i hear wrong...? i hope so. It just brings me down that a highly respected member of 254 would look at me in the eyes and lie to me?



bah....im done talking about this.



F.R.

[pakratt1991]

our Member with the media pass was also told by the alliance captain of 254 that it was 494 decision to substitute us and that they had nothing to do with it. The conclusion you stated above is the same one that we came to out on the field, and after our Head Mentor talked to you. I find that this was not gracious of professional, I personally don't like being lied to, I am not trying to accuse anyone here but the simple fact it that someone did say an untruth. If it was an accident or a mistake that is one thing, but I have heard the same thing from a couple people.

[FierceRabbit]

I guess winning is everything now-a-days.

[Travis Covington]

You sure EJ didn't say it was up to 494 (as the alliance captain) to make the decision?? (as in, the Refs didn't care what 254's opinion was. 494, as the alliance captain, was responsible for conveying the alliances opinion to the ref) I was there too, and there was a lot of confusion and a lot of hurt feelings... the bottom line was this... when we tested the ramps/platforms, at full lift, when 254's bot was on the platform, the top of the platform measured 11.75". When we attempted to lift the platform in an effort to remove any possible delfection, the height remained the same. Furthermore, 494 was not even able to climb up the platform at all! Their casters behind their rear set of wheels made it impossible to climb over the platforms 1" lip.

[FierceRabbit]

Originally Posted by Travis Covington

You sure EJ didn't say it was up to 494 (as the alliance captain) to make the decision?? (as in, the Refs didn't care what 254's opinion was. 494, as the alliance captain, was responsible for conveying the alliances opinion to the ref) I was there too, and there was a lot of confusion and a lot of hurt feelings... the bottom line was this... when we tested the ramps/platforms, at full lift, when 254's bot was on the platform, the top of the platform measured 11.75". When we attempted to lift the platform in an effort to remove any possible deflection, the height remained the same. Furthermore, 494 was not even able to climb up the platform at all! Their casters behind their rear set of wheels made it impossible to climb over the platforms 1" lip.

Im positive he told me that. I'm also aware that the lift was not all the way. They waited 5 mins to be sure there was enough pressure. but they only did it once. apparently the 5 min of waiting was enough justification that the ramp didn't work. 494 did make it on 997's ramp. 997 just had to be in the lifting zone backwards for it to work.

[Nuttyman54]

Can we please get this thread back on topic? The discussion is about whether or not it is a valid strategy to use, not whether a particular mentor provided wrongful information. Since 494 was the captain, they must have talked to a ref. Can we get clarification of what exactly the ref said about not being allowed to substitute, and if there is a common ruling on what qualifies as "inoperable"?

[eugenebrooks]

Inoperable is a completely broken state, aka dead on the field,
or if next years game is in water as some have rumored, dead
in the water. Inoperable also means dead in the sense that it
can't be made operable in an allowed timeout. If you had a
wheel knocked off you might consider yourself inoperable, but
then again you might bolt on a caster and continue to play as
1280 did as a finalist in SVR last year.

A robot with an arm ripped off is not inoperable, it can still play
defense. A robot with a lift that comes up 1/4 inch short of
12 inches can still lift a pair of robots 4 inches and score 30 points
doing it. This is far from inoperable. If your robot could not roll
around on the carpet, I would call it inoperable.

You pick your alliance, and you play your elimination matches.
If a robot is inoperable, it is quite obvious to everyone.

Eugene