pic: Track System

[Alpha 997]

Originally Posted by 114ManualLabor

Both. The center pulley is lowered about a tenth of an inch. I also watched these, got a chance to play with them, have the CAD, and have done massive research on them.

I think that the center roller should be set lower. The little difference it had pretty much didn't matter on carpet when 100 lbs of robot is pushing down on it.

[Alpha 997]

Originally Posted by Cory

You are purchasing a finished assembly--an entire drive system.

We're talking about two different rules. You're talking about manufacturing costs. I'm talking about the fact that you cannot buy a completed subassembly under the 2007 robot rules, which is exactly what these tracks are.

These tracks are by no means completed sub-assemblies, consider I personally assembled each track together from pieces and then built the drive train with them.

Originally Posted by Cory

You are purchasing a finished assembly--an entire drive system.

We're talking about two different rules. You're talking about manufacturing costs. I'm talking about the fact that you cannot buy a completed subassembly under the 2007 robot rules, which is exactly what these tracks are.

A couple things... The cost issue is beaten back by the fact that the bill is for individual pieces or the system. Machine time is donated to Outback teams that choose to work with them. Also, it gives teams who don't posses the huge resources of larger, more powerful teams, a better chance at having a highly competitive drive system.

[Travis Covington]

So you guys think that if AndyMark sold their transmissions unassembled and billed you for the parts individually that they could be selling them for more than $400? Not quite.

No matter how you try to justify it, $600 worth of parts that are meant to be assembled together is the same as a $600 part... I don't see where the argument is.

[kramarczyk]

Originally Posted by 114ManualLabor

Both. The center pulley is lowered about a tenth of an inch. I also watched these, got a chance to play with them, have the CAD, and have done massive research on them.

OK, so enlighten me, what metric(s) did you compare and how did you calculate it (them).
Where did you get the research data and what intermediate conclusions did it allow you to draw.

i.e. Treads are good because they distribute the load and allow the weight concentration to be more central compared to a 4x4 system which decreases the energy lost to scrubbing the wheels without reducing forward tractive force. - Drivetrain Basics White Paper - Chris Hibner - http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/1443

Note: I am not trying to hijack this thread with a discussion of what is the "proper" amount center wheel drop, so lets leave that discussion for another thread.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Travis Covington

So you guys think that if AndyMark sold their transmissions unassembled and billed you for the parts individually that they could be selling them for more than $400? Not quite.

No matter how you try to justify it, $600 worth of parts that are meant to be assembled together is the same as a $600 part... I don't see where the argument is.

exactly how I see it.

If they were to be sold as is, I think they should be illegal.

A slight sidebar from the normal topic... But take a look at a large majority of the threads that people post showing new and thought provoking ideas. Have you ever noticed that every single one of these threads de-evolves into a "this isn't legal, that isn't legal" type argument, and less of the true point of FIRST: actual design and engineering inspiration and learning? As a student, I've become very turned off to sharing my designs on here anymore. Don't expect to see them anymore. Seriously, if every time I post something like this, a rule discussion is held, then I'm just gonna give it up, because that's not what I here for.

Sidebar over, continue your normal discussion on the issue.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by 114ManualLabor

A slight sidebar from the normal topic... But take a look at a large majority of the threads that people post showing new and thought provoking ideas. Have you ever noticed that every single one of these threads de-evolves into a "this isn't legal, that isn't legal" type argument, and less of the true point of FIRST: actual design and engineering inspiration and learning? As a student, I've become very turned off to sharing my designs on here anymore. Don't expect to see them anymore. Seriously, if every time I post something like this, a rule discussion is held, then I'm just gonna give it up, because that's not what I here for.

Sidebar over, continue your normal discussion on the issue.

It's also about working within the predetermined rules and constraints.

If this isn't intended for FIRST, the rules change next season, or the price is lowered, then it is an awesome piece of work. Otherwise, it's just not legal.

Don't get me wrong immediately jumping to the legality of it; I admire a lot of the work you post and use a lot of it for inspiration.

[Travis Covington]

This has everything to do with the intent of selling them. When you invest or plan to invest that sort of money into (legally) selling these, then yes, I imagine you should listen to all of the comments being made regarding such things. Andy and Mark had some difficult hurdles that they had to jump over to make it in this business selling to FIRST teams... if you want to compete in that market, you HAVE GOT to address the same issues that they have... you can't create convinient loopholes and not expect a few (so far) harmless opinions to be voiced...

Originally Posted by Travis Covington

This has everything to do with the intent of selling them. When you invest or plan to invest that sort of money into (legally) selling these, then yes, I imagine you should listen to all of the comments being made regarding such things. Andy and Mark had some difficult hurdles that they had to jump over to make it in this business selling to FIRST teams... if you want to compete in that market, you HAVE GOT to address the same issues that they have... you can't create convinient loopholes and not expect a few (so far) harmless opinions to voiced...

The real point of that small sidebar was that this has a tendency to happen on just about every new and different idea or image that gets posted here.

I already realize the legality issues, as does Sam Shawe from outback, and we are working on finding a way to make the tracks legal.

[POLISH703]

My team has used tank treads since probaly 2004 - 2006. We really liked them and they worked great. We could turn on a dime, and usually come out on top of a pushing battle. I am pretty sure we had a good way of doing it. But...there is always the problem of treads breaking during a match, worst yet a elimiation round match. We were able to change one tread in a half hour under pressure. Thankfully this year we did away with the tank treads and used 14 wheeler design which I think works betters then our old design of tank treads. Next year we may use the same drivetrain idea but make it lighter and cheaper.

Originally Posted by Travis Covington

So you guys think that if AndyMark sold their transmissions unassembled and billed you for the parts individually that they could be selling them for more than $400? Not quite.

No matter how you try to justify it, $600 worth of parts that are meant to be assembled together is the same as a $600 part... I don't see where the argument is.

I did a bit of thinking, and based on this idea, your robot is illegal, just like every other team out there. You pay for individual parts to be machined, WITH THE INTENT OF ASSEMBLING THEM together, correct? How is this any different? The only change is that an adult mentor (Sam from outback) is designing them, and letting multiple teams build them. The only cost if for the individual pieces and materials. So my point is simple that if these are illegal, as they come in pieces, and you have to work closely with outback, then so are every single robot that competed in Champs.

[Travis Covington]

Originally Posted by 114ManualLabor

I did a bit of thinking, and based on this idea, your robot is illegal, just like every other team out there. You pay for individual parts to be machined, WITH THE INTENT OF ASSEMBLING THEM together, correct? How is this any different? The only change is that an adult mentor (Sam from outback) is designing them, and letting multiple teams build them. The only cost if for the individual pieces and materials. So my point is simple that if these are illegal, as they come in pieces, and you have to work closely with outback, then so are every single robot that competed in Champs.

You don't seem to understand the issue here. We didn't pay a dime for any of our manufacturing. Hell, we did more than 50% of it ourselves. I didn't pick up the phone and make a call to my local robot parts distributor telling them to ship me one of their new drivetrains they have sitting on the shelves... (edited)

I am comparing outback manufacturing to andymark, where we will assume both companies will be making and selling robot parts to be used as FIRST legal components on their competition robots.

Never once did I say the teams who had them this year were using them illegally... I am just mentioning the possible issues that would arise IF AND WHEN you try and sell and distrubute them in a manner similar to AM, Banebots, etc. I brought this all up simply because I was under the impression that you would be selling these next year, as you noted the prices and the intent to make these available (at a cost) to all teams interested.

There is a HUGE difference there.

[Alpha 997]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Never once did I say the teams who had them this year were using them illegally... I am just mentioning the possible issues that would arise IF AND WHEN you try and sell and distrubute them in a manner similar to AM, Banebots, etc. I brought this all up simply because I was under the impression that you would be selling these next year, as you noted the prices and the intent to make these available (at a cost) to all teams interested.

There is a HUGE difference there.

Ok, that's all I wanted to get it clear. That the tracks we used this year were legal because we did not just buy it off the shelf. As for Outback selling them next year, it’s none of my business.

[sdcantrell56]

So what you are saying is that Outback is manufacturing these for free and that there is $600 worth of material. Do you think that Outback would cut a discount on machining for other parts for FIRST?