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Unread 18-04-2007, 19:31
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What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

It’s given that lot of teams and people are frustrated after this season. It started with the Banebots, went to the algorithm of the match listings, ruling of not being able to use tools in the pit, then it was about defense… and we are still going at it. It’s always something new everyday. It has been said before and we are repeating over and over that something needs to be done. There is another thread where there is a moderated discussion about how to improve things that we have dealt with this past season. We have bashed Banebots, FIRST, Teams, GDC, but have any of us take a step back and think that there are over 1300 teams around the world, and not everyone is going to be happy with what is given. There are threads where people posted things saying “It should be done this way,” “or maybe they should handle it this way.” Before posting have you thought about if all those 1300 teams going to be happy with what you came up with? I mean come on, there are only so many active members on Chiefdelphi that come here and read this stuff that we go through. Keep in mind those suggestions only contains ideas, but I have yet to see enough posts where an idea was proposed with “how, when, where, why, who.”

I admire what Dr. Joe and Shane Colton from Team 97 (I know there are many others but I don’t personally talk to all of them) did this past season with the Banebots. They saw a problem and started analyzing until they could come up with a solution for the teams. Lot of teams have benefited after reading the material they have posted on the forum.

It upsets me when I see posts by people in threads discussing incidents that have happened but they weren’t there to witness it themselves. I assume that they pick a “favorite side” and go at it (I am not saying everyone posts like this but structure of some posts makes me believe that).

What happened to the FIRST community I have joined 6 years ago? What happened to the times when we would do anything to help each other? What happened to the times when the opposing alliance would share 10 ft. of #25 chain so the teams can compete in the finals? We all go out there and talk about how great FIRST is, but over here we talk about is what went wrong, how this or that would have been better.

The reason I am starting this thread is because a few months ago, I met this parent at a Lego league tournament, she wanted to know how to get her daughter involved in FIRST. I referred her to the FIRST website, gave her my number, email and also I gave her a link to the Chiefdelphi forums. I received a call from her about 5 hours ago and the first thing that pops up into my mind that she said is “Oh, looks like there were a lot of difficulties to get through this season,” She also pointed out the Banebot bashing as well as the “defense” threads. This parent read the forum for a while, observed and then called me. She is still interested in becoming a mentor and have her daughter join a team.

So, please before you post in any technical threads or any threads that has to do with the reputation of some team/person/company, think twice. When you throw an idea out there, please explain why it is better, how is it better. If you don’t have time to make a long post at that time, come back later and think and then post.

I am very frustrated after getting the phone call from the parent. This is the first time in 6 years, anybody have ever talked to me like this about FIRST. Please stop bashing, help to come up with a solution for the problems we find everyday.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 19:36
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

I'm sorry if my post about the shock sensor/inconsistent ramming calls was the final straw. It was more of an entertaining idea than anything. I realize that everyone involved here is human, and I also realize that there is no reason to bash everyone involved.

So here it is: I apologize for any post I may have created bashing anyone/anything. I am willing to love, and that's what I've been trying to do all along.

But something tells me, you aren't talking to me.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 19:39
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

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Originally Posted by JBotAlan View Post
I'm sorry if my post about the shock sensor/inconsistent ramming calls was the final straw. It was more of an entertaining idea than anything. I realize that everyone involved here is human, and I also realize that there is no reason to bash everyone involved.

So here it is: I apologize for any post I may have created bashing anyone/anything. I am willing to love, and that's what I've been trying to do all along.

But something tells me, you aren't talking to me.
No no... don't get me wrong. I am not talking to "specific people." I am talking to the whole community.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 19:48
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

This year has been a pretty tough year for teams, I know I saw a lot of problems both first hand and as an outside observer reading here on CD. Problems combined that the stress we normally undergo and the seeming anonymity of the internet often lead to posts that may cross over that line separating Good Idea Land and Bad Idea Land. I would also like to ask anyone to remember to always always always think twice about posting, doubly so when you are upset.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 19:52
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

Don't think of the FIRST family as becoming "dysfunctional" (i.e. spiteful, distrustful, non-communicative) based on some posts in CD.

The fact is that many of us are success-driven and competitive by nature. We want to be at the top of our class, whether it is in school or on the field. Sometimes that desire will affect our better judgment, especially in the heat of the moment. It's a very difficult test of character to accept without any emotional display that people (drivers, referees, even Banebot designers) make mistakes when we are under the pressure of a "critical" match or fast-approaching ship date.

I think that after the smoke clears from an isolated incident or rash reaction to adversity, we pretty quickly revert to that cooperative and supportive FIRST community that you are proud to call your family.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 20:11
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

Ari -
I understand your plea to the community here in Chief Delphi.
I also understand that you asked a parent and future mentor to observe this community and she did.

I've been observing our community as well and what I've been thinking about for a few months with threads like the Banebots and the algorithm, and student/mentor lead discussions, and the defense thread(s) over the past few days is how unique this situation is.

I agree that we should be respectful in our posts, even when approaching topics from different perspectives and views. What astounds and encourages me, is that this community is made up of students, engineers, teachers, scientists, sponsors, parents, NEMS - all working together at communication, sharing information, working through problems to possible solutions.

We call ourselves community/family. We are. Our kitchen table where we gather is the size of Chief Delphi. We are at the very end of a season and this week, some of the threads are reflecting that. At the same time, other threads are developing that are reflecting our community in a positive light. If you have concerns regarding our poor showing as community, please direct your contact to some of these threads, showing her that yes, we argue and discuss, sometimes heatedly - but we also share history, team work at its best, and compassion. We learn and grow together. We are a community that is constantly changing and evolving. And we can always do better.
Jane
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Last edited by JaneYoung : 18-04-2007 at 20:13. Reason: word change
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Unread 18-04-2007, 20:12
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

I haven't been around as long as some have, (that should be evident), but I can definitely see some of your points.
The community definitely has changed irrevocably; it has grown exponentially over the years, and grown more and more competitive.
I think part of the changes you see with that are the growing competition. With so many teams, teams want to make themselves noticeable in the global community, and I think they may resort to less conventional methods of doing that. They think less and less about the community as a whole, and more of their team's advancement (sort of like what David said).

I really don't see how we can 'find a solution' to these problems, as much as encourage forum members to think about what they are posting, and crack down on bashing.

Or we can strengthen this wonderful community that I call my family as well. As others have echoed in other threads, the intimacy we had in earlier years is no longer there. But now we have a new thing on our side: universality. We still have our FIRST friends...but they grow more and more numerous with each year...and I can only see them continuing to grow.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 20:22
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

You can't have 1,300 teams, 40+ regionals etc without problems and people complaining.

Sure there are problems, sure the alliance program with duplicates was bad, sure the banebots were bad.

But FIRST is like life and what it will be like in industry. It is made up of people and problems. I think overall the attitudes at FIRST are fantastic. Problems are small, FIRST works at both keeping the problems down and attitudes up.

This all starts with you an individual and as a team. It is all our responsibility to work on the problems and attitudes.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 20:33
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

Ary,

I couldn't agree with you more. It's hard to tell what the root cause is, but i have to give us as FIRSTers the benefit f the doubt. I think a lot of the frustration stems from the magnitude of the problems this year (there didn't seem to be many problems with the KOP transmissions from 05 or 06, and the randomizer was better in the past in many peoples minds). A lot of the frustration, though, is also perpetuated by us as users of CD and members of teams.

I always try to teach students that this isn't about the robot. They have a hard time believing me most of the time, but they get it (at least i think they do), and they try to resolve their frustrations rather than turning them into a big deal.

The best thing for us to do IMO is to start with ourselves, our teams and our sister teams (see the thread out about the "Sweet Challenge") and be the change.

I won't see another season of FRC until 2010, and i hope FIRST will still be what i grew up loving. I'm confident it will, and i know that we can all do our part to help out.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 20:39
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

Every time a big problem was expressed on Chief Delphi, the problem was fixed, or explained.

Just some food for thought.

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Unread 18-04-2007, 21:04
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

I don't know what it was, but it seemed that everyone was in a worse 'mood' this season. The championship 'could be improved' thread is full of people saying it was not all that great, some saying it was the worst one for years. The drillpress-banning thread was full of people saying it was the last straw or that they are steadily getting more fed up with FIRST.

I'm curious if the root cause is that people are less enthused about something this year in general, that is making them gripe more. Maybe this winter was particularely cold or snowy (it sure was in the waterloo area). Maybe funding was harder to come by due to some cyclical downturn which made the whole build period more stressful.

If your entire season was consumed by being cold, snowed-in, and worrying about how you were going to pay for all of this, FIRST making a questionable ruling or your banebots motor breaking on top of it all will hit a lot harder.

------ More likely idea: -------
Another possibility is that this year there was just a spike of odd or poorly-received rulings by FIRST. If you think about it, every year there will be a few ill-received rulings or problems with the KOP, and the number and severity of these unhappy events will vary by year. Some years there will be 10 critically unhappy events, some years there'll be 2 trivial ones. We may have just been unlucky enough to have had a spike year, and next year it'll return to normal.

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Unread 18-04-2007, 21:12
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

I'm almost convinced its just this year. Almost everyone I know has been having problems since New Years, both in and out of FIRST.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 21:13
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

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I'm almost convinced its just this year. Almost everyone I know has been having problems since New Years, both in and out of FIRST.
I so wanted to include that in my post. You read my mind.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 21:24
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

I agree with what has been said so far. People have seemed to me to be in a "bad mood" all season this year. Yet I only find this to be the case on these forums. I myself have disagreed with some rules and problems that have arose, and I tried my best to not show anger during posts. But I did notice that the regionals that went to people were exactly the same as two years ago ( last time I went) showing me that although we may type bad things, we were just as excited to play the game as any other year. and anyone who made comments about "getting fed up" and alike, it did not show during competition time. FIRST is just like everything else, problems will happen, thankfully the majority of us always have/will act in a very positive manner.
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Unread 18-04-2007, 21:28
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Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

Being someone who made some poor choices of words manu years ago on these boards, has taught me and other teamates in check. When we see a problem, we hash it out, usually agree on a best course of action, and go from there. Never has that solution been to come on the boards and comment on every single thread...

On the mentor side, you have people from teams who remember "the good 'ol days". A time and place they wish to return to. This season was different from previous years, and next year will be too. FIRST as a whole is expanding quickly, and bickering until threads are closed, feelings are hurt, and friends become enemies will not help at all. It only takes one person to make a team look horrible ( I speak from personal experience ) on the outside no matter how many good people you have in your organization.


Humans resist change, and we will resist change. There is no controling that. What can be controlled, is how we all handle the changes.


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