Autonomous end game

[Vogel648]

Originally Posted by Bongle

I don't think this is the case. If you had an infrared emitter or vision target in the bonus zone, then all teams would have to do in autonomous is spin around until they find the target, then drive towards it. Already in autonomous teams have to acquire the vision target, so that isn't terribly difficult. As a programmer, I can tell you that when the camera is working and you've got KW's code, it is actually very easy to program with.

As a programmer I can tell you that doing much more than we did this year in autonomous would require more than 15 seconds and probably more time to program. Understand that there are ways of finding the light that don't involve spinning your robot in any way, but also don't allow for a full 360 of motion. Plus, again what if something is in the way, etc, etc etc. If we had another 2-4 weeks to do this, I would say, sure maybe we can get something worked out. But as a programmer, I know that when you say, "it'd be simple", really what you mean is that it seems like it'd be simple but it ends up being way more work that it was really worth.

Also, I don't really see much of a pay off of it being at the end.

[LordTalps]

I'd love to see this, it seems like a barrel of fun.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Tt321b

This is a very interesting topic. I would like to see more autonomous but there are a few problems that could come up when at the end of the game.
1) Doesn't the RC need to be reset to re-engage autonomous mode?
2) How would the RC differentiate between the beginning autonomous and ending autonomous?
3) You wouldn't see any last second efforts to race back to your side of the field and jump on a ramp like in the last two years

1) As far as I know... No. Autonomous is dictated by the IFI Field Control. When the Field is set to Auton, the bots are on Auton.

2) The code has 3 modes at the moment -- "Initiate", which is a sort of "pre-auton, start up the camera/etc" mode, then "Auton", which is activated by field control, then "Teleoperated", which is also activated by field control. To differentiate between another auton mode and the first one, add another mode and call it "auton2" or "autonend", etc.

3) Perhaps next year's game won't involve ramps. Dave's already mentioned Tangential Quadrilaterals, so I wouldn't be suprised if we get a major change in the game for '08.

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by Vogel648

As a programmer I can tell you that doing much more than we did this year in autonomous would require more than 15 seconds and probably more time to program. Understand that there are ways of finding the light that don't involve spinning your robot in any way, but also don't allow for a full 360 of motion. Plus, again what if something is in the way, etc, etc etc. If we had another 2-4 weeks to do this, I would say, sure maybe we can get something worked out. But as a programmer, I know that when you say, "it'd be simple", really what you mean is that it seems like it'd be simple but it ends up being way more work that it was really worth.

Also, I don't really see much of a pay off of it being at the end.

This isn't anything you don't already have to deal with though. In both 2006 and 2007, other robots would actively attempt to block you, block off your vision, shake the rack, as well as knock you off course. Opposing robots would be aimed to hit you. That would be a point of failure of many autonomous modes, and would be one of the higher-level challenges for teams looking to make theirs more robust.

And I'm serious when I say "it'd be simple". The easiest would be to simply have your robot drive forward slowly for 15 seconds and have your driver pre-aim at the end of the match. It might hit another robot, but that's a problem in autonomous as it is now as well. For a bit more difficulty, make a simplifying assumption that the light will always be in view (if it is mounted where it was in Aim High, this wouldn't be a problem), and then you can do the slow spin and acquire. Much more difficulty might be to detect impacts and attempt to drive around them.


Here are some assumptions a potential autonomous-writer can make to make it easier, and removal of each of these bumps it to a higher-level
-There are no robots in my way
-The robot is pointed the correct direction
-There are no game field elements in my way
-I can ram into the end wall at low speed without damaging my robot

You don't have to make a autonomous mode that detects other robots and field elements, avoids them, and pirouettes it's way to the end zone. You can make a simple little one, and if your robot is not pointed the right way at the end of the match, just hit the e-stop before final autonomous starts.

If you look at 2006, there were several levels of autonomous:
-Drive-forward defenders
-Drive-forward, then aim again defenders
-Stay-in-place shooters that were pre-aimed
-Shooters that drove a little, then shot
-Shooters that could drive across the field, re-acquire the camera, then shoot
-Shooters that, while shooting, could detect an impact, stop shooting, re-aim, then shoot

IMO, lack of participation in autonomous mode this year was because it was simultaneously perceived as 1) not worth it and 2) very difficult. If you make it worth going for, then teams will, at the very least, make a drive-forward mode. Aim High had plenty of participation in autonomous, at least so far as the drive-forward modes were concerned.

The pay-off would be to have a mode that is at its base level slightly more challenging than drive-forward that isn't JUST drive-forward. Plus, real engineers have to deal with variability, why don't our programmers?

[Taylor]

I would argue that the lack of autonomous this year was due to the risk-reward assessment. Just at one regional I saw several robots get hung up or overturned by the rack during autonomous mode.
Furthermore, the reliability of the cameras created an issue. In 2006 our dumping robot ran a fairly successful offensive autonomous mode without the camera guiding us; in 2007, without the camera, successful autonomous was nearly impossible.
If the GDC introduces a "safe area" on the field that perhaps only autonomously controlled robots could enter, I would certainly be in favor of that. Maybe when a robot crosses a certain threshold, drivers aren't allowed to touch the controls until the robot crosses back into the teleoperated area...? Some sort of door or gate that restricts use to that area...?
This could get very complicated very quickly.

[65_Xero_Huskie]

The game for this would have to be something that would prevent your robot from getting tangeled in the game element (This year, the rack would cause problems).
Also, If there was a problem on the field then there would be serious problems at the end. If theres a problem wiht auto in the beginning it wouldnt matter because there would be no points scored or anything. If it malfunctioned at the end then there would be a BIG problem.
But, i would love to see this happen. It would make auto mode more exciting (like it was in 05)