Standing Up During Competition...

[K. Sehgal]

It does get very tiring standing up for a long time. but it does no good to complain.

It Atlanta I was the only person from the team there and had to stand for hour on end!

[fredliu168]

In Atlanta I stood up... and an adult threw something at me...

No joke.

[Mark Garver]

Do you really think your team’s Drivers, Human Player, and Coach look up into the stands during a match to get inspiration to do a better job?

I can only answer for myself, but being a past driver and human player, and currently a coach, I can tell you that I never look into the stands during the duration of a match. Yes, I do look into the stands before a match starts and seeing my team standing has definitely boosted my confidence about a match. I also look to the stands after the match to see either my team standing and cheering because it is a clear victory or to see my team trying to calculate the score to determine if we won.

So I guess I agree, standing does show respect and gives your Drive Team a boost of confidence. But is it really necessary to do during the match… my opinion is no. Show respect to the other spectators trying to enjoy the matches. Teams form opinions about other teams not only on how their robot performs but also how teams act in the pits and stands, being positive or negative.

In addition to sitting during matches, I would like people to follow the same unwritten rule as hockey has; you don’t go to or leave your sits until there is a break. This would mean that people wouldn’t be walking up and down the aisles during matches.

I know our team gets tired of asking for teams in front of us to sit during matches. I am sure this could and has lead to teams being rude in how they ask teams to sit because of having to do it continuously.

I am sure the stands are designed the way they are for a reason…

[Tetraman]

We had this same complaint last year, and I'm sure we had it the year before that, and the year before that...

The best for both worlds is doing what some regionals do...add space between the field and the stands to allow cheering teams to see the action, while making the stands void of obstructions...and even that can still cause problems of viewing.

Unless you make it so all teams can't stand at all, you will not find a solution to this problem.

[santosh]

We had that problem out of state. We didn't ever have a problem with it at peachtree but have had it occasionally at vcu and once at boilermaker in 05. Infact during peachtree, we stood throughout the entire playoffs. Since then, we have compromised and moved towards the back of the stands so we didn't annoy people that had problems with it at other regionals/champs.
I think that you should have the right to support your team during their matches. If the people want to scout that bad, they should either stand up or find another place for a short 2:15. There are only like 7 opportunities for the rest of the team to show their support for the robot, and most everyone wants to take advantage of it by standing up and going crazy for the bot.
Generally, when a team stands up in front of us, we stand up right behind them to see the match and cheer them on.
I would rather be up closer but since it doesn't sit well with some, we don't...

[Dinger]

Our team always stands when we are haveing a match. usually this is no problem. we often tell the teams behind us that we will stand durring our match, and when it is over we will sit again. This usually calms some nerves. If we end up standing in front of scouters, and they point this out to us (usually by frenzied yelling of "gah, can you sit? i gotta scout this!"), we move close togeather to give the scouters a line of vision.

We have been on the reciveing end also, were the team in front of us stands and blocks our veiw (and most importantly the veiw of our scouters). But is this a fiasco? no. the scouters sit at the end of a row so that they have more room to move thier heads around to get the best veiw of the feild. If the team in front of us seems to be taking up way more space than they need to, or if somones mascot is in our way (happened at nationals) we have one person politely ask them if they could move slightly so that we can scout. Never once has anyone said no to me when i have asked them to make a small accomedation.

It seems to me that the only time it becomes a big deal is if someone makes it one. we ran into this at nationals when someone came up to one of our mentors and asked her if she was familiar with the "no standing rule" at all events. she politly responded that she was unfamiliar with this rule and that if it was pointed out to her in offical documentation she would happily comply. we did not ever get a chance to see that rule pointed out to us...
It seems to me that the bigger a deal people make out of the standing (as in the bigger the fit they have) the less likely it is for teams to want to be compliant. And throwing a fit doesnt seem very FIRSTy to me. What i have found is that if the two parties (the standers and the sitters behind them) have a polite exchange, there is rarely a time where a solution cannot be worked out.

[BHS_STopping]

In my opinion, I don't think it's very polite to stand during a match. It makes it difficult for scouts to see the field and see how good some robots are. Standing can sometimes rob the other robots on the field the chance to be noticed and be picked during alliance selections. Think of it this way: Team A goes into a match. Their robot is working very well, but has not yet had a chance to show its scoring ability. Team B goes into the same match along with Team A. Team B's member's stand up during the match to cheer and show spirit. Team C, which is in the stands scouting behind Team B, is seeded very high and will probably be selecting an alliance for the elimination matches. Team A compliments Team C very well, but Team C is not able to see how good they really are because their view is obstructed by Team B's members standing up.

Although it might not affect your team very much if you stand, you might very well affect 5 other teams in the process. There are plenty of ways to show team spirit without standing up in front of other teams. Remember, during a football game, people don't have to look down as far to see the action. During FRC, the fields are much closer to the base of the stands, making it very problematic if even a small obstacle is in front of you.

[coreyk]

Originally Posted by BHS_STopping

In my opinion, I don't think it's very polite to stand during a match. It makes it difficult for scouts to see the field and see how good some robots are. Standing can sometimes rob the other robots on the field the chance to be noticed and be picked during alliance selections.

As a FIRST participant for four years, It is difficult for me to believe that an individual (unless a scout) watches every match. As previously mentioned - the competition is a sporting event...and as in any sports related activity, fans stand to support their team – especially when something exciting happens. If you parallel this to a robotics competition, teams stand when excited. For some teams this may only be for a few seconds - however, for most it may be the entire match. At the Championship event, there are countless areas where scouts could relocate for better visibility.

Standing in moments of excitement is limitless in the real world. For example, in Congress when a speaker makes a moving speech, members stand. When the President makes a favorable point, individuals stand. At a football game, after a player makes a touchdown, fans stand (sometimes for minutes). Do you think that an individual sitting behind someone who is standing requests that the individual sit down?.....No.

Originally Posted by BHS_STopping

There are plenty of ways to show team spirit without standing up in front of other teams.

Please provide examples. The only thing that I can think of is cheering...waving flags or other items would probably be labeled as "ungracious” as well.

[technoL]

At the Championship event, there are countless areas where scouts could relocate for better visibility.

This is very untrue. This year we tried to be very dedicated to scouting and changed our location every day in search of a better view. The first day we had prime seats, almost bottom and center, but unfortunately we couldn't get those seats any other day. Otherwise, we were at the top, with the hopes of being able to see over everyone else (again, doesn't quite work at the Championship), and on Saturday, we were almost off of the field and at the top, running into the same situation. Some may not realize that if you are scouting with a laptop, you cannot stand up to look over those standing in front of you, when it is difficult to see even when they are sitting.

In the end, a team shouldn't have to go through extremes to try to see a match. Other teams should be courteous enough to realize that there are people behind them, and with only 6 or 7 matches, EVERY single match is vital to collect worthy scouting data.

Apparently, most have taken sides on this issue and a few have become offended by pleas to remain seated during the match. Again, I look at it like this, what difference does it make if you are standing and cheering during the whole match? Have you ever tried sitting and cheering during the match? Do you feel as if you are less spirited, or as if there is a loss of enthusiasm? If you didn't get a chance to stand, would you have gone "Oh man, if I was standing I would have been so much more spirited to my team and I guess I am going to have to sit and mope now!" I doubt it. A new twist to FIRST: a lesson in self-control to deal with. Try sitting and cheering for a few matches, just for the sake of everyone behind you.

How about this, if there was an actual rule about it, would you still stand and cheer? Probably not. You would think of better ways to show spirit according to the new ruling. Just because someone doesn't tell you to play in traffic doesn't mean that you should.

Hopefully FIRST will officially address this by next year with a fair solution. I'm sure we have better things to discuss than common courtesy.

-No L

[coreyk]

I see that you are extremely passionate about this topic, and I am not going to argue with the points that you have made. Although, I disagree with your comments, responding to each of them would be repetitive. With this being said, I am sorry that your team was unable to obtain optimal seating and as a result, were unable to collect the scouting information that you desired.

As far as a ruling - I feel that standing should be allowed because it contributes to the energy of the competition. Spirit (as it pertains to standing) has been an integral part of FIRST, as it visually depicts student and mentor enthusiasm. Although, cheering while sitting contributes to the audio…it lacks any evidence of visual excitement.

[eugenebrooks]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

In Atlanta I stood up... and an adult threw something at me...

What a great idea!
I will have to bring a bag of projectiles to Atlanta next year.

Eugene

[J Flex 188]

Just as a personal peeve of mine, there's little to no reason to hide behind the "spirit of what people define as gracious professionalism" as a catch-all for any actions that people view contribute to the competition but that others may have disagreements with. Just as you have pointed out that it could be construed as not being "GP" to politely ask a team to sit down, I could construe it as not being "GP" when I am asked by the same team to not sit in their section of seats that they have attempted to save. (Although that is an actual rule). I certainly would not take offense or question a team's "GP" if they were saving one or two seats just as a team shouldn't when they are asked to sit down by another team behind them. As sound and integral the concept of GP may be to FIRST, one runs into the danger of diluting what the message is supposed to be (not that I claim to be an expert on it, but I have a fairly good idea in mind that it wasn't designed to be applied to the practice of requesting other teams to sit down) when one uses it to hide behind issues that really are more banal than they appear to be.

On the actual topic of the thread, every regional that I have been a part of always has a section marked off in the very front so that teams may kneel and cheer or sometimes stand in close promixity at field level. This stops the issue of cheering and standing up entirely.

Originally Posted by Lea103

In the spirit of FIRST and gracious professionalism, I feel that teams telling others to sit down is rude and unappropriate. Teams should be able to stand and cheer because all have worked hard to build their robot and to even attend a competition.


-Lea

(and 648, please keep it down, you were a little loud.... hahaha )

[Kevin Sevcik]

I'll come down on the side of the old fogeys as well, despite my age. Standing in front of other people and blocking their view isn't nice. I'm certain none of these teams supporting standing would even think about waving a 10' flag in the stands during their matches and blocking views that way, but they have little problem with blocking views by standing. The only difference is in the magnitude.

As others have said, there are many other people at these competitions, and it's very cavalier to simply assume they're all capable of standing or moving about to suit your whims. The disabled, elderly, physically infirm, and pregnant are all unlikely to be able to stand repeatedly or for long periods. Nor are they likely to move about every time a standing team sits in front of them. Ask yourself this:

Would you hesitate to hold a door for one of these people? Help them pick up something they dropped? Assist them up stairs if they asked?

Now, would you change your answer if you were headed to watch a match? More importantly, would you actively cut someone off at a door if you were headed to a match? Would you bump them in haste and cause them to drop things, then run off to see your team?

How about an easy one... Would you seat a team member's grandmother in a back row, and then have the entire team stand up in front of her? Or pick a seat in front of her and then stand up? Is there any good reason to treat someone else's grandmother differently?

I know they're all terribly unfair questions. I suppose it's unfortunate that it's a terribly unfair situation to begin with, but you might want to stop and consider just who it's unfair to.

[PhilBot]

For anyone who listened to openning ceremonies at Nationals this year, it was once again highlighted that the "G" in "GP" is all about not following the ugly "win at all costs" mentality of some sporting events. Yes we want to win, and support our teams, but NOT "at any cost".

Standing en-mass throughout an entire match, with COMPLETE disregard to anyone behind you, is simply put, un-gracious. I don't care how you want to justify it... "we've always done it... they do it at football matches... the people behind can stand up too... we're just showing team spirit". It's just egotistical.

You're basically saying... "for the next 2 1/2 minutes, our participation is more important than yours". It's starting to sound like the "I'm drunk and can be as obnoxious as I like" aspect of many sporting events.

It's also just like the guy who parks his car in the handicapped spot to return his videos. "It's just for a minute...."

The other problem of maintaining the existing "standing" staus quo is that it starts adversely effecting other FIRST events. For example, at nationals I was trying to watch our Middle School FLL team compete. Anyone who has watched a FLL match knows that it's hard at the best of times because of the small scale. Even with a big screen you can not get a feel for the play.

When it came time for one of our matches, a group of 20 or so adults stood up about 5 rows in front of us and stayed standing for the entire match. They even held up placards to add another 4 feet to their height. Needless to say, we couldn't see a thing, even when we also stood up. When a badged FIRST offical (who's view was obstructed) went down and asked them to sit, they replied "no, our team's playing".

OK, let's look at this for a moment. There were 4 FLL tems playing on the field at that moment, so the parents in question felt that the other 3 sets of supporters didn't deserve to see their teams play. They also felt that the supporter behind them in the wheelchair also should have been able to stand up to see, and that the FIRST official should just mind her own business.

It's also interesting that at a coach's meeting the following day, we were told that the judges were observing all aspects of team dynamics and that poor team (and supporter) behavior on the playing field, in the pits and stands were all factored into awards. Ungracious support behaviour can clearly impact a team's ability to win an award that depends on GP.

FIRST doesn't have to make a rule against something for it to be wrong.
It's already outlawed because it's UN-GP.

ps:

If you first reaction to my post is "Get over it, we're going to keep standing up for the full match.", then you've just proved my point.

Phil.

[BHS_STopping]

Originally Posted by coreyk

As a FIRST participant for four years, It is difficult for me to believe that an individual (unless a scout) watches every match. As previously mentioned - the competition is a sporting event...and as in any sports related activity, fans stand to support their team – especially when something exciting happens. If you parallel this to a robotics competition, teams stand when excited. For some teams this may only be for a few seconds - however, for most it may be the entire match. At the Championship event, there are countless areas where scouts could relocate for better visibility.

Nearly every person in our team, when in the stands, is scouting a match. Our team is not very large, and it can be difficult for our members to see a match when several people are standing up in front of us. Sure, it is possible to relocate to a better position, but unfortunately, splitting up our team for one match would usually result in our team splitting up for the rest of the day. And odds are, the new spot that we find will be behind another team anyway, thus defeating the purpose of relocation.

Standing in moments of excitement is limitless in the real world. For example, in Congress when a speaker makes a moving speech, members stand. When the President makes a favorable point, individuals stand. At a football game, after a player makes a touchdown, fans stand (sometimes for minutes). Do you think that an individual sitting behind someone who is standing requests that the individual sit down?.....No.

Although many consider FRC a sporting event, it does not necessarily hold true to that idea. Sure, FRC is tons of fun and is great to watch, but there is a difference between wanting to watch a match and needing to watch a match. I (and my team as well) never stand during a match, but we do stand up and cheer when our team is announced and after the final score is announced. I can sympathize with the teams behind us that are scouting, so I will not block someone's view just so I can get a better look at our robot.

Please provide examples. The only thing that I can think of is cheering...waving flags or other items would probably be labeled as "ungracious” as well.

Cheering and chanting during a match is okay. However, you may do whatever you want as long as it is not during the match. I suppose that if winning the team spirit award is that important to a team during the competition, then I am afraid that that team has failed to identify things that are more important than winning an award. To me, it's more rewarding to know that I made someone else happy or to display GP, rather than winning an award at the expense of others.