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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-04-2007, 22:31
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Chris Fultz Chris Fultz is offline
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Re: Interesting Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
While it's true that participating in FIRST won't get you a top college, is that really the most important thing? There are plenty of decent colleges out there, and anyone resourceful enough to build a robot in six weeks should be able to find one that's right for them. Also, I have never heard of any employer asking a college-educated potential employee about their high school GPA. In the long run, the hands on experience from FIRST is way more useful than straight A's.
When you apply for scholarships, GPA will likely be a determining factor. Why, people who award scholarships want to help students succeed in college, and one of the best indicators for that is demonstrated academic ability in high school.

When you apply to colleges and universities, you will find that many of them use your GPA as a first screen. Why, if you cannot do the high school work, then you probably cannot do the college level work. The study skills need to be learned early and carried through. So, GPA is very important. Other activities, including FIRST, are part of the next level review. You have to pass the first screen to get looked at for the second screen.

When you are ready to graduate from college, many employers will use where you went to school and your college GPA as a screen. If you are not above some level, your resume won't even get reviewed. Then they will look at other involvement and activities and decide if they would like an interview with you.

Also, most major companies do not recruit from every college in the country - they simply cannot afford to. They go to schools where they know the programs and know the quality of students that are graduating - so getting into a "top school" vs. a "decent" school can have a profound impact on the rest of your life.

In the long run, it is a balance of school work (keeping score by GPA) and other activities (family, faith, volunteering, clubs, teams, etc.) that will allow you to succeed.
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Last edited by Chris Fultz : 29-04-2007 at 22:36.
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Unread 29-04-2007, 22:39
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

The overall grade requirement of 2.5 to apply to the team is only slightly higher than the requirement for sports teams at our high school. We (the coaches) have long maintained that having standards for grades shows the students view on education and its importance to them. When evaluating a student in the application process and find a student that would benifit from being on the FIRST Team but is not meeting the GPA we take the GPA rule to a new level. The student is accepted to the team on provision that grades improve from that point. We provide tutoring if needed and work with the teachers to come up with a plan to solve the learning problems.

There is a major difference in a student that struggles with academics and a student that has a low regard for their education. Both are problems but both have different solutitions.

There is a strong correlation of students with low grades, behavior probems and attendance issues. I think we can all agree that behavior problems and attendance are critical issues for a team member. Dealing with behavior problems of team members will destroy your team flavor, and drive away many great students.

Yes, in my article you can view the GPA requirement as a contridiction to inspiration of a student who could benifit greatly. In the past 12 years as a coach and team leader in FIRST the benifits of the GPA in most cases outweigh the negative. I challenge every student I come in contact with to be a "Life Long Learner". This can take several forms including college, military and on the job training both formal and informal.

Your GPA in High School and College is a reflection of your cooperation with educational processes, nothing more. It is NOT a measurement of how much you know or how much you can learn.

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Unread 29-04-2007, 23:06
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

Being a former high school student on the team I am now a leader of, I understand that FIRST can sometimes cause a drop in grades. However my experience has been that during the build season i have always obtained my highest grades (Average in the fall Marking periods in high school was a 92.2%... in the springs it was an average of 96.5%) I guess the desire to do FIRST made me want to get my work done, because i knew that if i didn't get it done I wasn't going to be going to anything.

However, our team does not have this required GPA, which personally seems like a great idea. I would like to implement it onto the team, but im not sure how some of the high school teachers would take this (wether they would be for or against it.)

If you have any suggestions on how to break this to them or get them to join the band wagon please PM me.
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Unread 29-04-2007, 23:08
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Re: Interesting Quote

I am offended at the thought of academic prerequisites for joining a robotics team, since such a proposal would eliminate me from the program I love the most. Although I do have a B average overall , I am a horrible math student. Case in point, my highest math grade on a test this year was a 75, with the average score being in the 50s. Under some teams policies, this would bar me from joining the team. Based on my expereinces, I agree with Kelly from FRC #1418's findings, that "the people who belong on the team come to meetings and get things accomplished while the people who don't belong on the team stop coming."

This statement is further backed by the average commute time of my team. Due to the nature of my school, students are not from any one neighborhood. Instead, the student body comes from all 5 boros, with 4 of the 5 represented on the SciBorgs. Therefore, the average time is around 75 minutes each way to school. If a student is dedicated enough to leave school after a long night during build season and face that kind of commute home, then they are more than qualified to be a member.
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Unread 29-04-2007, 23:22
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

114 has no grade requirement for joining and participating, be it during the build season or at the competitions. This isn't to say that a student who is failing classes will be able to skip school for 2-3 days to travel to a regional. We have had numerous instances where a student has been pulled from a regional due to lack luster grades, not by the team, but by the students parents. Given that students pay for their own travel fees, it doesn't put the team into a hole when someone is unable to attend.
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Unread 29-04-2007, 23:54
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Delles View Post
Being a former high school student on the team I am now a leader of, I understand that FIRST can sometimes cause a drop in grades. However my experience has been that during the build season i have always obtained my highest grades (Average in the fall Marking periods in high school was a 92.2%... in the springs it was an average of 96.5%) I guess the desire to do FIRST made me want to get my work done, because i knew that if i didn't get it done I wasn't going to be going to anything.

However, our team does not have this required GPA, which personally seems like a great idea. I would like to implement it onto the team, but im not sure how some of the high school teachers would take this (wether they would be for or against it.)

If you have any suggestions on how to break this to them or get them to join the band wagon please PM me.
I was the same exact way. My grades were highest in the spring... then I got bored and they dropped fairly significantly. I finished with a 2.9867 and a maroon tassel. I got ripped off, I should have had a gold tassel.
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Unread 30-04-2007, 23:51
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

After a year long posting hiatus, I have returned for this thread. Having academic restrictions on FIRST team membership is incorrigible.

Success by the metrics of formal education requires a host of skills and personality traits distinct from an aptitude for or understanding of the subject matter. You have to be organized, disciplined, and interested in jumping through arbitrary hoops to prove yourself to your superiors, peers, and society at large.

In my case, I lacked (and to some extent still need to work on) the latter traits. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I was very interested in math/science/engineering/programming in high school, and knew quite a bit about areas of each. Often (but, I'll admit, not always) I did well on my exams but received poor grades overall due to my abject failure to complete assignments. I'm sure a lot of people in my position, finding little validation of their talents in academia, would give up on these harder subjects. These people should not be turned away from FIRST. It saddens me to think that this is the case on some teams, as it seems like they are the sort that could benefit the most from it. For those lacking the traits required to succeed in the academic world, FIRST can provide some validation for what can sometimes seem like hopeless aspirations. This validation can inspire continued efforts to change habits and attitudes.

The carrot and stick approach is demeaning and laughable. Some people are simply not going to master the academic game in high school, no matter how many well meaning adults or peers try to help them. These people (like me!) should just be shunned? Being an underperforming high school student can be pretty hellish - you have every imaginable incentive already to turn things around. For a few students it might be the push they need, but for others it would a serious blow. Had my school had this policy, I would be a very bitter person today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerWhizIA
High School is just a stepping stone to College, which is a stepping stone to a career; meaning that you should do good in school while being in FIRST to gain the maximum benefit from it.
I disagree entirely. Every moment of your life has value on it's own, regardless of it's preparatory function. Life doesn't start until (or if...) your career arrives? Or is that just preparation for retirement? Education, and the experiences outside it in high school and college have intrinsic value. My best friendships (practically my only friendships) from high school were made during the robotics season. Really, it was one of the few positive aspects of those years, but it was so great that I look back on them fondly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fultz
People who award scholarships want to help students succeed in college, and one of the best indicators for that is demonstrated academic ability in high school.
No no, they want people who will succeed with as little help as possible. Everyone else is a liability to the institution, and a potentially short-lived revenue source.

GPA measures in the individual those traits required to play the academic game well. These are traits that can be developed though, and it's much easier to do than developing passion for a subject. If you can get young people seriously excited about engineering/math/science, teaching them study skills seems like a trifling matter by comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fultz
When you are ready to graduate from college, many employers will use where you went to school and your college GPA as a screen. If you are not above some level, your resume won't even get reviewed.
Really? Other than Google and a few other companies, I have very rarely heard of employers asking for GPA. They usually want transcripts to verify you actually earned a degree, and potentially to check your areas of concentration, but practically no one cares what grades got you that degree. Getting in to graduate school, if you go, is the last time anyone will ask you about your GPA.
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Unread 30-04-2007, 23:56
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

Oh, and I would add that EC's almost never get in the way of school. Look at all the overachievers around you, I bet quite a few of them have an unfathomable number of extra-curricular activities. Most of the people who would fail to meet these grad cutoffs are terminal slackers like I was - there problem isn't too much going on, it's not enough. If you want something done, ask a busy person.
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Unread 01-05-2007, 00:03
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

On 269, grades are not necessarily a requirement for actually joining and participating on the team. Grades are, however, crucial for traveling with the team. Just like the sports teams at our high school, if certain requirements (Usually a C or C+ average and no failing grades) are not met, the student can not travel to nor participate in competitions.

As a result of this, and as some of you have mentioned, many of our students have seen their GPAs increase significantly during their time on the team, simply because of the heightened desire to be able to see, and operate, their beloved machine in competition. Additionally, because of the range of (I suppose you could say) GPAs on our team, there is always someone that a struggling student can turn to for assistance.

Never underestimate the motivational power of FIRST - it's one heck of a spiffy thing to see in action.

[And yes, phrontist, many employers DO want to see your college, and sometimes even your high school, GPA. Don't burn your ACT and SAT scores yet either - you never known when they'll rear their (ugly?) head.]
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Last edited by dubious elise : 01-05-2007 at 00:07.
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Unread 01-05-2007, 00:14
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

I know for me I am not very motivated to do work at any time. At the end of the semester (in 3 days) I will most likely have a total GPA of 3.4 over the last 2 semesters. Now if I cared more and had more discipline to study and do homework I would most likely have a 3.9 or something that high. I have never had to study too much and have always gotten above average grades I guess. In highschool I would get 93% on tests and I wouldn't even remember there was a test. It was kinda just like, Oh look that is a test today oh well. I wish I was brought up to be more disciplined because I know if I cared in highschool the way I am starting to I would have been one of those people with 99%.

I think having a requirement can help and hurt, becuase if a student has a grade so low that it takes 3 weeks to bring up your already halfway through build season. I would rather limit the hours they are allowed at robotics. I think it can make people change but I mean for me unless your were offering me a new car or something like that in highschool I would have looked past the offer.

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Unread 01-05-2007, 01:05
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by phrontist View Post
Really? Other than Google and a few other companies, I have very rarely heard of employers asking for GPA. They usually want transcripts to verify you actually earned a degree, and potentially to check your areas of concentration, but practically no one cares what grades got you that degree. Getting in to graduate school, if you go, is the last time anyone will ask you about your GPA.
it depends very much on the company; so far, all the really desirable ones that i've seen have had a cut-off of 3.0 or higher; grad schools are (largely) the same way, or higher.

after 7 years of FIRST, i've come to a very improtant conclusion:

FIRST, in itself, will not make you an engineer.

while it is an excellent suplement to an engineering education, it won't replace it. what you experience through FIRST is an extremely small idealized part of the engineering world; there is much that FIRST would be hard pressed to teach you. college is what gives you the tools to become a good engineer, and your grades show how well you know how to use those tools.

for what its worth, up until 2 semesters ago, i was one of those "terminal slackers"; my GPA seldom broke 2.5, and after several years of lackluter performance, i was in danger of losing my scholarship. last summer, and fall, i turned in a 3.75+ performance for both semsters. this semester, (for the first time in my life) i'm aiming for straight A's. its not easy, its not always fun, but it is imprtant. your grades and test scores are one of the major ways that companies and schools can evaluate how well you know your stuff. it may be a hard pill to swallow, but sometimes you just have to buckledown and play the game.
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Unread 01-05-2007, 02:59
Salik Syed Salik Syed is offline
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

Actually it's not just google, but almost all the top companies hire new faces based on GPA. Investment banking firms, Google, Consulting firms etc. all recruit from elite schools and usually take the people with the best GPAs. Now if you want to settle for an okay to good job then it's fine don't bother working hard and getting a high GPA. But if you want to work for a fortune 500 company or other top company with all the nice opportunities for growth, benefits etc.. you have to work hard even in college. Not saying that's what I do or want to do but that's the truth.

As for high-school, there is no excuse for a low GPA... in High-school everything is easy even slackers can get As with ease. I'm not saying we should restrict people joining robotics teams based on GPA.
What I am saying is that your GPA is the key to suceeding, it is easy to keep it high while doing little work... so why not just do assignments? High-School assignments are a joke, just sit down for the 35 minutes it usually takes and do the work. You won't regret it.

Quote:
No no, they want people who will succeed with as little help as possible. Everyone else is a liability to the institution, and a potentially short-lived revenue source.

GPA measures in the individual those traits required to play the academic game well. These are traits that can be developed though, and it's much easier to do than developing passion for a subject. If you can get young people seriously excited about engineering/math/science, teaching them study skills seems like a trifling matter by comparison.
The problem is that there are thousands of kids who have passion for things, what sets you apart in a competitive world is when you have passion and in addition to that you have high SAT scores and a good GPA and a load of other things. Secondly colleges/scholarships are usually not willing to overlook the fact that you do poorly in high-school despite it being very easy to do well in.
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Unread 01-05-2007, 06:50
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

I been reading this and noticed that there seems to be a thought that everyone must go to college. Not everyone is cut out for college. You also seem to be assuming that everyone in FIRST will be wanting to be an engineer...
Now hold off with the tar and feathers a moment.
Theres nothing wrong with going to a college and getting a degree.
But there are plenty of young folks that for them these top level colleges are just out of reach. They may come from broken homes with heavy financial burdens ect...
Some young folks need to go right into the work force ASAP. These same people
could/are are great asset to a FIRST team.
There is no substitute for experience... all your grades and book learning is well and good but until you've actually gotten you hands dirty and muscles sore you don't really know much.
I've worked in many different industries. My grades in school were dismal and yeah I do wish I had spent more time in class and less on the road but...
There is always a place for a jack of all trades that has more experience under his belt that paper hanging on his walls.
To think that someone would be excluded from getting his hands dirty, or knuckles bruised working on a robot just cause he/she is a less than honor roll or straight A/B student is a sad thing. Theres more to building and working with robots or any machine that the programing.
Going by some of the requirements stated here none of the kids I work with would ever have a chance to be on a FIRST team. But these same young folks may just end up being the ones to fix your cars, work on the machines in your factories, and build the roads you drive on.
Should they be excluded for FIRST just cause the book learning comes hard for them? Or the fact they need work part time at Mc D's just to help their mom pay the bills?

Just my 2 cents on this... take it or leave it.
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Unread 01-05-2007, 10:09
Ken Loyd Ken Loyd is offline
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

Team #39 follows the school district rules that have been established for all extracurricular activities:

Practice and Play--2.00 GPA with no failures.

Practice No Play--2.00 GPA with only one failure.

This policy allows the student with grade problems to remain active in the club and the club can assist the student to address the problems. I would like to add that in my nine years we have only had two students who fell into the "practice no play" area and both students did not stay there very long. The vast majority of our students earn a 3.00 GPA or better. I do not know how fair the system is nor if the system has ever kept a student from joining the club, but it appears to work for us.

Ken
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Unread 01-05-2007, 10:14
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Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc

There are no restrictions to be on 1529, but to travel, students must have at least a C- in all classes (not average). The reasons have already been eloquently expressed in this thread.
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