Grades and Student Travel, Etc

[Kyle]

Since MOE is a multi school team, this year 14 high schools and home schools and up to 18 different schools one year, we are not able to keep track of grades. Each Student has to get a form signed by all of their teachers to be able to go to any competition saying that the teacher has no problem with their grade or missing 2-3 days of school, also I think the form has to be signed by a principle or guidance consular but I can't remember. That way the Teachers, the ones who know that student and their abilities, can make the decision if they can afford to miss school for events or not. Also we leave it up to the parents to decided if their child's grades are up to there standards to stay on the team.

I am not a fan of the required GPA and I love the way my team dose it since it give the control to the teachers and people most familiar to that student and their academic status but each team is different and has different situations.

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by luciaes

I think that anyone should be able to be on a FIRST team, regardless of grades. Why cant someone with low grades contribute to a team? with a basketball or football team i can see grades being a factor, but with robotics its completely different. Robotics is a place ware you can learn so much from being on a team, i highly doubt that you can learn as much on a basketball team than you can on a FIRST team.

Saying someone cant be on the team because they have low grades is saying "well you don't do good in school, so you don't deserve a chance to learn anything here and be inspired to do good just because you currently don't do so good"

Personally i think I'm doing better in school now that I'm in robotics and have a much higher desire to learn, and now i might be taking extra classes over the summer just to learn more and get farther in school, and if i wasn't allowed on the team because of my grades i would have never got the chance to see that.

I think the argument is that if the student is getting poor grades, it could indicate that they are not able to handle their current workload. When our team goes on trips, we miss 2 days of school, meaning that when we get home, we have 2 days of work to make up (and usually our work from Wednesday night, as well). I think most advisors/mentors/teachers want to be certain that the kids on the team will be able to handle all the make-up work. If a student is overwhelmed with their workload when they are not participating in robotics, how are they going to do once they join the team and get involved with build season and competitions?

It's not that they're trying to prevent "dumb" kids from joining; they just want to make sure robotics doesn't hurt their academic performance.

On our team, students have to maintain at least a C average in all their classes; this is also the requirement, I believe, for most of the conventional sports teams. To travel, they must meet this requirement, as well as our community service requirement. Each year, students must complete at least 10 hours of community service to be allowed to travel. Other factors, such as attendance at meetings are also factored into this decision. Ultimately, Mr. Cokeley (WayneC here on CD) makes all the final decisions on who gets to travel.

For our "away" regional, we try to only bring veteran members of the team (or, in some cases, new members who have truly stepped up during the build and off season are allowed to go). This helps to prevent students who simply want to join to go on trips from joining as often and eating up travel funds (we instated that this year after word got around that we went to Las Vegas last year) So we bring the entire team to Atlanta and New Jersey, and usually a group of ~20 students to our away regional (though for Hawaii, that number will be far less).

[MissInformation]

Our team is supposed to have a grade policy in place, where if a student fails a class or classes, they have, I believe, one grading period to bring their grade up or they have to leave the team. We have never enforced it, and part of me is glad for the students who aren't doing well, but a wiser part of me knows we are hurting the team by not enforcing it...

The teacher who has been with our team the longest is going to retire soon... We do currently have two other teachers who play a more limited role on the team, so there's no panic yet, however should we need to go find additional teacher help, we're going to be in trouble because a lot of teachers in the school "hate" the robotics team because of the way grades drop during build season. Summary: bad grades can easily = NO TEACHER SUPPORT! Sometimes schools and school districts pass rules that could hurt robotics teams (such as the district that passed a rule against using power tools). If our team ever has to battle to stay in existence, I worry that a lack of teacher support could hurt our chances. I don't blame those other teachers for not liking the robotics team, especially if they are dealing with students who are just slackers (learning disabilities are a completely different story). Teachers deserve respect and students who don't even try are a slap in their faces.

Heidi

[Jimbo5051]

I personally would hate to have a gpa requirement becuase I am a great student when it comes to calc, pyhsics, world history,chemistry,etc. but when it comes to english I just dont make the grade. I had all A's except in English which I had a big fat D- in last year, I had a better grade in Spanish than in English. It brought my gpa down from 4.0 to 3.56 and even though that is a realtivly good gpa it still would not look good when a college ask me for a copy of my transcript having just barely passed the class.

[JesseK]

It is the build season in which the students learn and have their thoughts teased, tortured, and challenged. FIRST is about the build season and since most of the building takes place after school and on weekends, I really would not want to deny any student that opportunity. It's by mere chance that grades are not checked until after the build season (quarterly report cards afaik) so all students are allowed to come in the build season.

For travel, however, to go with the team you must meet the same requirements as a college level student: C average or better in all classes. We mentor the students as college or better, we treat the students as college or better, so there is no reason to expect anything less. In my experience with the rare student that falls short, it is more a factor of laziness or mis-focus (on robotics instead of projects/homework), which we try to catch throughout the season. We also tutor students throughout the season if they appear to struggle with concepts (note, we do not much help them fight the struggle with laziness).

In the real world, regardless of your extraciricular activities, if you don't perform as expected on the job you have a high probability of not having your job much longer.

[rachal]

We let anyone join the team, but if they start getting low grades (no strict definition, but probably around C's) they are temporarily suspended from doing robotics work/traveling to competitions. Not because we think their scholastic ability is a measure of their capability in robotics (our teacher advisor has no qualms about suspending leads and officers if they are doing poorly) but because we don't want to damage their academic performance. It's a good motivation, all the students who are dedicated enough to come work on a bot 12 hours a day during their spring break are also usually motivated enough to maintain their grades so they can go to competition.

[JaneYoung]

Teachers deserve respect and students who don't even try are a slap in their faces.

Teachers are my personal heroes and have been since my early days.
Our lead teacher founded our robotics team 14 years ago. He uses a lot of common sense in working with our students and in helping them. One thing he does is network with other teachers, following how they are doing all year and esp. during build, competition and afterwards when the real crunch hits and projects are due, finals are looming. And he doesn't just keep tabs on the team during the competition season, he keeps tabs on them throughout their high school career and post graduation - college, technical school, working - into their careers. It's called caring.

If the reputation were to develop that our FIRST team allows/encourages slacking and blowing off school responsibilities, I don't think it would be long before educators, engineers, sponsors, and politicians would lose interest in the program. Students who struggle to achieve are vastly different from students who don't care and don't apply themselves. On our team, we look at how we can support the individual and how we can support the team effort. They work together.

[Eric O]

I believe that 177s policy for travel is similar to participating on a sports team. I don't know the exact numbers because the school administrator that participates on the teams is responsible for that. I do not think there is any grade requirement for participation. We have had students that participated during the season and did not get to travel with the team.

I will say that I disagree with denying a student right to join the team because of grades. To me, the whole point of the Inspiration in FIRST is to inspire students who may be off track, students who are looking up to Athletes and Hollywood stars. If they see no reason to change their attitude toward learning then how will they ever get on track? I see mentors as a chance to give that student motivation toward brining up their grades or even assisting them in doing so. Teenagers often rebel against parents and teachers, but I have been amazed at how seriously students have taken FIRST mentors advice. If the students that need the advice from someone they admire and are never given the chance to receive it then that is disappointing to me. Those are the students whose lives could have the largest change due to FIRST.

I agree that there should definitely be travel restrictions if the grades are not brought up because the student has had the chance to and has still not done so. If they have truly been inspired and want to participate, they will get the grades up and be back the next year.

Like fishing, some may get away as you are reeling them in, but never letting out enough line to get the big ones at the bottom is just disappointing.

Eric

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

Also, most major companies do not recruit from every college in the country - they simply cannot afford to. They go to schools where they know the programs and know the quality of students that are graduating - so getting into a "top school" vs. a "decent" school can have a profound impact on the rest of your life.

Ignoring the fact that this really only applies to your first job after you graduate, this is another department where FIRST can be useful. I haven't even graduated high school, and connections I formed through FIRST have already helped me get jobs with engineering companies.
Also, Phrontist's point about looking at high school as more than just preparation for college bears repeating. The secret to unhappiness is to look at every opportunity as preparation for the future, rather than as inherently useful.

Originally Posted by ComputerWhizIA

meaning that you should do good in school while being in FIRST to gain the maximum benefit from it.

One way to do well in school is to demonstrate an understanding of the difference between adjectives and adverbs.

[4throck]

On 1418, as has already been commented, we have absolutely no grade requirements. In fact, our leadership has a long and proud history of underachievement in school. High school does not in any way shape or form (except perhaps workload) prepare you for the real world. The purpose of FIRST is inspiring and recognizing science and technology, and high school rarely involves either.
Saying that FIRST teams should have a grade requirement has a fairly fascistic ring to it. You are forcing kids to jump through the hoops of a educational system that is broken for those who would really need FIRST in the first place. Hell, I'm going to a liberal arts school next year, and I still believe that FIRST was the most worthwhile thing I did in school.
And finally, who cares about high school GPA after you are in college? A business will check your college grades, but certainly not your high school transcript.

Just my $0.20 (I am 10 times more valuable than most)

[Graham Donaldson]

Our school itself, if I remember correctly, has a minimum grade to be in ANY extracurricular activity- 1676 doesn't have one. However, before any long trips (Ohio, Atlanta, etc...- we live in NJ), we have to get a HW form signed by all our teachers with the HW we're required to/should do, and then we have team study sessions on the bus or in a room at the hotel- something like that.

As much as being in FIRST is great for the hands-on experience, I feel it's still important to maintain at least a B/B+ GPA, because of a chain of events sequence. Even with FIRST, with a bad GPA, you won't necessarily get into a good college/university, and if you don't get into the school you want, you won't necessarily get the job you want, so it still is important.

Originally Posted by Kelly

Ignoring the fact that this really only applies to your first job after you graduate, this is another department where FIRST can be useful.

I normally don't come around much, but I feel the need to chime in here.

About 11 years ago my dad applied for a job with a Delphi. He is an engineer, graduated from Lafayette College in Easton PA in 1981.


15 years out of college and he held his previous job for 15 years, yet they wanted to see his college transcripts and to make sure he had at least a GPA of 3.5. He spent a few years there and went back to the original company he worked for, but the point is companies aren't afraid to check your transcripts no matter how long you've been out.

Most of the time your college transcripts will follow you through your entire life. The moral of the story is work hard, do your best and do whatever you can to make sure those transcripts help you instead of haunt you.

Sure there are idiots with 4.0s and geniuses with 2.5s, but don't put yourself into a position where a company will just blow you off.

[pafwl]

At Lansdale Catholic (team 272) we do not have any entrance criteria for a student to be part of the team. I believe this leads to elitism. If we had entrance criteria I may not have been able to be part of it when I was in high school.

I allow anyone to come in and let the process grab them. I have seen many shy quiet students turn into leaders, movers and shakers. I have also seen many "elitists" do nothing but talk.

The only positions we have that any student can try out for is driver, operator or coach. We will not allow a student on jeopardy of academic probation from being on of these.

10 years ago we started and we always asked students to write their thoughts at the end. So do some don't. One student gained some great insight. She wrote "I have always thought that the high GPA students who were my friends in school knew everything. But what I learned is when it came to the real world like trying to design and build our robot they knew nothing. They did not even know where to start. The students I thought were not so bright and did not socialize with in fact knew how to do a lot of this. These people became key to any success we had. I learned that I will never prejudge anyone by their grades or looks."

Remember FIRST is "For Inspiration" of all students. It is a little tough to inspire students you won't allow in.

[Andrea's Mom]

As a teacher and parent of a MOE team member, I have strong feelings about who should and should not participate in a FIRST program. It all boils down to setting priorities - and priorities create very individual choices.

As a teacher, I KNOW that grades are often a poor measure of a student's talents. The FIRST program makes such a positive impact on every student and adult involved; that to deny those benefits to anyone committed to working hard with gracious professionalism is unacceptable. One of the best things about MOE is that a wide variety of skills and talents, from social to mechanical, make each person valuable to the team.

As a mom of daughters who are currently a junior and senior in high school, I can tell you that grades mean more than anything in your profile IF you are going to college. Rigorous coursework, along with good grades, provide students with opportunities for scholarships and admission to highly respected colleges. The FIRST experience is certainly a plus, but it and a C average may not qualify you for the college of your choice.

I teach kids in an alternative high school. We're lucky if 2 kids go on to community college after getting a GED or diploma right after graduation. But even our students would benefit from experience with a FIRST program. In spite of public pressure, not everyone has college in their future The skills and lessons learned during a build season go far beyond winning scholarships and looking good on college apps.

Each student has unique interests, needs and plans for her immediate future. I believe that an FRC program experience is valuable to anyone willing to adhere to team rules and the spirit of FIRST.

. . . sheepishly stepping down from my soapbox now . . .

[vhcook]

Team 1776 is based out of an alternative high school. I'm not entirely certain what the precise requirements are to travel with the team, but I'm under the impression they are largely behavioral.

I think a lot of these decisions are going to be based on the size and composition of the school(s) providing your student team members, as well as what part of the FIRST mission you're focusing on. A lot of what we're accomplishing is teaching the students how to adapt when things don't work, and what you can do with math and science knowledge.