Grades and Student Travel, Etc

[CommanderRachek]

Originally Posted by D.J. Fluck

Sure there are idiots with 4.0s and geniuses with 2.5s, but don't put yourself into a position where a company will just blow you off.

This brings up a sentiment I myself have at times attempted to impart upon several of my teammates (including the illustrious Phrontist): sometimes (not always) it's easier to just jump through the dang hoop. This is something which I believe, though I believe it less now than I did two or three years ago.

That notwithstanding, I do not believe that any student anywhere should be put in a position where they feel obligated to jump through an irrelevant hoop (e.g. math class) in order to get something that is actually important (e.g. FIRST). The choice to do the math (or history, or physics, or English) work should be just that: a choice; specifically it is a choice to use time now in order to possibly (not definitely) broaden one's future options.

In my experience, meaningless assignments are what contribute to the bulk of most classes' grades, and true intellectualism (by which I mean learning for learning's sake) is either ignored or actively discouraged, except by an enlightened few. FIRST is one of the few venues that are available to high school students for true intellectual growth. By introducing a mandatory minimum GPA, a FIRST team is almost invariably going to exclude the students that would benefit most from it: the kids who are sick and tired of playing this ridiculous, pseudo-academic game and want to actually learn something. I happen to be one of these kids, along with (if I may be so bold as to do some conjecturing) every single other member of team 1418, past and present. This is not to say that we are the only students who feel this way: to the contrary, I believe such students are all over the place, and that nearly all of them feel much of the same frustration that I do.

A good GPA will almost always open a few doors for you in the future, but it will very often lead to closed doors in the present: time lost to busywork cannot be devoted to something valuable and interesting. On top of that, the doors that good grades do open can usually be opened some other way. If they can't, they are worthless.

[technoL]

I've debated this quite a few times about what side of the fence I want to be on for this one. From personal experiences, I've summed up that grades ARE important.

As with any other extracurricular at our school, our minimum participation requirement 2.0. I completely understand the reasoning behind this. Besides the band, our team misses the most school out of any group. I suppose in this sense we are using GPA as a measure of responsibility. Regardless of the learning situation, you should strive to do your best, thus a 2.0 is not out of anyone's reach on our team. Most of the time it is just laziness and not lack of knowledge. With our minimum requirements, we are not preventing opportunities, but simply ensuring that we have a team of quality members.

As far as the team is concerned, students are usually only held back if a teacher or parent notes that the student is falling behind. We make it clear that it is the responsibility of the student to make up all missed work and settle all discrepancies with their teachers. I do admit that the build season has an effect on grades, and that is understandable (my grades dropped almost a whole letter grade between Jan and April, but I'm finally getting back up to an A average again), but in the end, school is more important. I've been on trips where it seems as if some people have packed more books and homework than clothes, but you do what you need to do. It's hard, but the rewards are worth it.

I have lost the respect of a teacher or two along the way for my dedication to robotics and not fully to their classes, but I've recently gained it back . Many teachers don't see the value of FIRST, and they have little sympathy if you dare mention the word robotics, therefore we need students to keep up the good rep of the program by maintaining their grades. Having students with the highest GPAs in the school and outside success looks great to the administration, rather than a bunch of students with a massive amount of practical knowledge, but nothing but a robot to prove it.

I think that the combined success of academics and robotics is more rewarding that just one or the other. Sure, I can say that I have learned more about physics in robotics than in school, but being able to say that I've done so without sacrificing my grades feels SO much better. It's the same the other way around too. Sure, I might have had straight As, but I didn't get to enjoy anything else. A C+ or B won't hurt much for one quarter.

-No L

[Salik Syed]

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

This brings up a sentiment I myself have at times attempted to impart upon several of my teammates (including the illustrious Phrontist): sometimes (not always) it's easier to just jump through the dang hoop. This is something which I believe, though I believe it less now than I did two or three years ago.

That notwithstanding, I do not believe that any student anywhere should be put in a position where they feel obligated to jump through an irrelevant hoop (e.g. math class) in order to get something that is actually important (e.g. FIRST). The choice to do the math (or history, or physics, or English) work should be just that: a choice; specifically it is a choice to use time now in order to possibly (not definitely) broaden one's future options.

In my experience, meaningless assignments are what contribute to the bulk of most classes' grades, and true intellectualism (by which I mean learning for learning's sake) is either ignored or actively discouraged, except by an enlightened few. FIRST is one of the few venues that are available to high school students for true intellectual growth. By introducing a mandatory minimum GPA, a FIRST team is almost invariably going to exclude the students that would benefit most from it: the kids who are sick and tired of playing this ridiculous, pseudo-academic game and want to actually learn something. I happen to be one of these kids, along with (if I may be so bold as to do some conjecturing) every single other member of team 1418, past and present. This is not to say that we are the only students who feel this way: to the contrary, I believe such students are all over the place, and that nearly all of them feel much of the same frustration that I do.

A good GPA will almost always open a few doors for you in the future, but it will very often lead to closed doors in the present: time lost to busywork cannot be devoted to something valuable and interesting. On top of that, the doors that good grades do open can usually be opened some other way. If they can't, they are worthless.

I have to disagree. I agree most classes do promote meaningless work... but I do not believe they actively squash intellectualism.
If kids REALLY want to learn they will... It often takes more than a teacher to learn something... you need to have interest in it as well.

// This stuff isn't in response to your post but just the thread in general

Secondly, I think people are over-emphasizing "learning" ... Learning can get you far in life but not as far as possible. Ultimately you need to be focused on goals and how to achieve them -- and this often involves doing things that aren't ideal or fun or intellectual. You need to know what you want and how to get it.

I'll admit I was a slacker but I never slacked enough to get lower than a B+
I knew I could get into pretty much any college if I got a 3.9 or above and just took every hard class possible.

Lastly ... GPA is not necessarily a measure of pure intelligence... and it isn't meant to be. Basically your GPA is a reflection of several things:
-How goal oriented/motivated you are
- How smart you are
- How organized you are.

I had a lot of the first, a little of the second, and none of the last...!

Having a low GPA does hurt you in life... and my ideology is this:
I am not someone extraordinarily special, I am not a genius and I probably am not going to achieve anything so <amazingly> special that I can get where I want to get...(this same fact probably applies to most people too). So I will just suck it up and jump through the hoop and get a good GPA.

Most people aren't amazing, they aren't going to be successful in a vaccum
those people need to suck it up and just try to get a good GPA and use the standard venues towards success.

[Travis Hoffman]

Team 48 welcomes all students into its fold regardless of academic standing. All students are welcome to join one of our functional subteams and participate in local events such as community service, fundraising, and our preship scrimmage. Each student on the team is required to pay an activity fee of $150, which can be reduced by participating in our team fundraising activities throughout the season.

Accepting behaviorally and otherwise-challenged students into our program may present a more daunting task to our teacher, engineer, and collegiate mentors, but it's worth it each time we reach a breakthrough with these kids and the light turns on for them. In an environment where many other groups have turned their backs on these kids (perhaps even their own families), they often appreciate a group that welcomes them in and challenges them to become more and do more. With patience and persistence, you can achieve some really surprising results.

In order for our students to travel, they must maintain a minimum 2.5 GPA verified by grade sheets passed around to and signed by all their teachers. These grade sheets are updated at several points throughout the school year. 48's teacher team leaders then also consider other factors in determining who travels - sometimes we have a limited number of travel spots and must make some tough decisions:

Team Service Time - Throughout the season, each Team 48 student fills out a daily time sheet documenting what tasks he/she worked on and for how long. Each daily entry must be signed off by one of the team's mentors. These time sheets are turned into the team teachers each week and saved for the team travel evaluation. With very few exceptions, those who contribute more and demonstrate better attendance are given travel preference over those who aren't around to support the team as much.

Submission of all Fees and Forms - If a student does not pay his/her activity fee in full by the travel period or fails to turn in their insurance forms, FIRST waiver, emergency form, or other required forms, they are not permitted to travel.

The team sets up monitored study tables for any students who drop below a 2.5 into "Team Academic Probation". We find that those who miss the boat on one trip due to grades are more than motivated to bring them up and become eligible for subsequent trips.

All of these requirements are documented in our team handbook that is distributed to students at the beginning of the year.

[CommanderRachek]

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

If kids REALLY want to learn they will... It often takes more than a teacher to learn something... you need to have interest in it as well.

I absolutely agree. In fact, that is exactly my point. Kids who are intellectually motivated don't need the grade to keep themselves productive, so why burden them with irrelevant work when they try to do something they actually like? In my experience, schoolwork has mostly just gotten in the way whenever I've wanted to do something interesting, like learn an instrument or read a particular book or build a robot. This is not to say that I'm entirely ungrateful for my public education. There is no doubt that I have learned a great many facts in these last twelve years, and facts are the basis of reason, so I am glad to know them. However, the spirit in which these facts were taught to me was one of basic uncuriosity, with the motivations of the vast majority of my teachers and administrators centering around standardized tests, and their expectations were that my motivation be my grades.

As it happens, grades have never been my motivation (though I do try to keep them acceptable to my parents, mostly for their sake), which explains the tremendous drop my grades took during and after the winter and spring of my tenth grade year, when I discovered my school's FIRST team. I had found something that I liked and that I could learn something while doing (a big plus for me). As such, my grades took a another knock down from their already low standing on my list of priorities. Ignoring school in favor of robotics (or music or the stage crew or any number of things I like to do) has always been a choice I have made, and personally I have no regrets. I have had a productive and fulfilling four years in high school. In contrast to myself, I have watched a great many very smart people spend their whole of their lives slaving away at stuff they know is meaningless for the sake of someone else's priorities.

What my priorities are is not my team's mentor's problem, and thankfully he realizes this. If someone on the team starts to suffer academically, it is entirely his or her lookout. For a team to introduce grade-based restrictions is to shut out those students for whom grades are not a motivator or priority, not to mention all those students who can't get good grades for one reason or another.

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

Lastly ... GPA is not necessarily a measure of pure intelligence... and it isn't meant to be. Basically your GPA is a reflection of several things:
-How goal oriented/motivated you are
- How smart you are
- How organized you are.

Grades are not a reflection of motivation or how goal oriented you are, they are a reflection of what you choose to make your motivations and goals. If you make school your top priority, you will get good grades, and if you don't, you won't. There's no way around that.

Really, good grades are a measure of how well you can play the system, which means doing busywork, brown-nosing, and generally giving over your own wants to someone else's wants. One of the main reasons I like FIRST so much is that it is an environment where I can succeed to some degree without having to do that.

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

Having a low GPA does hurt you in life... and my ideology is this:
I am not someone extraordinarily special, I am not a genius and I probably am not going to achieve anything so <amazingly> special that I can get where I want to get...(this same fact probably applies to most people too). So I will just suck it up and jump through the hoop and get a good GPA.

Most people aren't amazing, they aren't going to be successful in a vaccum those people need to suck it up and just try to get a good GPA and use the standard venues towards success.

I couldn't disagree more. Yes, grades do (unfairly) effect some people's perceptions of you, and having an exceptionally high GPA can get you scholarships and such, which are nice. But that scholarship is not going to make you happy any more than the GPA itself did.

As for how "most people aren't amazing": I guess that's so, but that doesn't mean everyone has to have the same definition of success, or that that definition must include good grades and a brand-name college and a high paying job. Personally, I don't call it success to sell yourself out of an opportunity to do something you love in exchange for a two car garage.

[Steve Wherry]

I guess that I am a little taken back by some of the short-sighted statements of students who represent a school prior to representing the FIRST team (whether you like it or not).

Before a FIRST team can succeed, it must have the support of the school which includes the administration and teachers. Most teams have their school name announced during competitons. Yes, there are programs that are not directly associated with a school district, but this is only a few teams.

As a FIRST mentor for 8 years, I have had to jump through hoops, at times, to make sure that our school system continues to support and allow a FIRST team. Basically, we cannot risk allowing students who are not willing to put in at least a minimum amount of effort in the classroom to be a part of the team. I need teachers to allow students to travel. I need the administration to allow our team to travel. I need teachers and administrators to allow our students to miss classes to do a demonstration at an elementary school. The key word: "allow".

Common statements have been, "Well I am bored and do not want to do homework, but FIRST interests me and allows me to grow." Students who get an F or two D's are suspended from our team until the next progress report. If FIRST is that important to them, then they will get there head on straight and play the game. Why? Because the team has to in order to maintain the full support of everyone involved. Yes, this includes those teachers who bore you into not doing homework. In most professions, employees at times have to complete tasks that seem to have no purpose. However, they do it so that they can keep the job. They then keep full support from their bosses.

Administrators play this game called No Child Left Behind, and the graduation rate is extremely important to them...even before our FIRST teams. If a student isn't cutting it in the classroom, then no extra-curriculars. Many students seem to blame the mentors who are getting pressure from the top dogs for inserting grade restrictions. The true blame goes to the student who decides not to cut it in the classroom, but wants to be a cornerstone of FIRST instead. Schools tend not to support this attitude or approach.

Like it or not, teams have to play the game in order to keep the support...or become extinct. Some risks are not worth taking.

[Chris Fultz]

Dean Kamen is an inventor, entrepreneur, and tireless advocate for science and technology. His passion and determination to help young people discover the excitement and rewards of science and technology are the cornerstones of FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology).

FIRST was founded in 1989 to inspire young people's interest and participation in science and technology. Based in Manchester, NH, the 501 (c) (3) not-for-profit public charity designs accessible, innovative programs that motivate young people to pursue education and career opportunities in science, technology, engineering, and math, while building self-confidence, knowledge, and life skills.

The quote is from page 1 of the FIRST website, right below the Vision and Mission statement. Underlines are my addition.

[Salik Syed]

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

I absolutely agree. In fact, that is exactly my point. Kids who are intellectually motivated don't need the grade to keep themselves productive, so why burden them with irrelevant work when they try to do something they actually like? In my experience, schoolwork has mostly just gotten in the way whenever I've wanted to do something interesting, like learn an instrument or read a particular book or build a robot. This is not to say that I'm entirely ungrateful for my public education. There is no doubt that I have learned a great many facts in these last twelve years, and facts are the basis of reason, so I am glad to know them. However, the spirit in which these facts were taught to me was one of basic uncuriosity, with the motivations of the vast majority of my teachers and administrators centering around standardized tests, and their expectations were that my motivation be my grades.

As it happens, grades have never been my motivation (though I do try to keep them acceptable to my parents, mostly for their sake), which explains the tremendous drop my grades took during and after the winter and spring of my tenth grade year, when I discovered my school's FIRST team. I had found something that I liked and that I could learn something while doing (a big plus for me). As such, my grades took a another knock down from their already low standing on my list of priorities. Ignoring school in favor of robotics (or music or the stage crew or any number of things I like to do) has always been a choice I have made, and personally I have no regrets. I have had a productive and fulfilling four years in high school. In contrast to myself, I have watched a great many very smart people spend their whole of their lives slaving away at stuff they know is meaningless for the sake of someone else's priorities.

What my priorities are is not my team's mentor's problem, and thankfully he realizes this. If someone on the team starts to suffer academically, it is entirely his or her lookout. For a team to introduce grade-based restrictions is to shut out those students for whom grades are not a motivator or priority, not to mention all those students who can't get good grades for one reason or another.



Grades are not a reflection of motivation or how goal oriented you are, they are a reflection of what you choose to make your motivations and goals. If you make school your top priority, you will get good grades, and if you don't, you won't. There's no way around that.

Really, good grades are a measure of how well you can play the system, which means doing busywork, brown-nosing, and generally giving over your own wants to someone else's wants. One of the main reasons I like FIRST so much is that it is an environment where I can succeed to some degree without having to do that.



I couldn't disagree more. Yes, grades do (unfairly) effect some people's perceptions of you, and having an exceptionally high GPA can get you scholarships and such, which are nice. But that scholarship is not going to make you happy any more than the GPA itself did.

As for how "most people aren't amazing": I guess that's so, but that doesn't mean everyone has to have the same definition of success, or that that definition must include good grades and a brand-name college and a high paying job. Personally, I don't call it success to sell yourself out of an opportunity to do something you love in exchange for a two car garage.

You bring up some interesting points! I think I will change my position... slightly.
I agree kids who are motivated don't need to be dragged down by busywork. Unfortunately kids who will learn on their own are a minority and thus our school system is the way that it is. I do see change ... I know our school offers AP courses/Honors and if you truly want to learn those at least place you in a class with *slightly* more motivated people.

And I see where you are coming from when you say that not everyone has to have the same goals to be successful. That is often the viewpoint many teens have ... that "I don't want to get good grades, I don't want to cave to socities standards, I want enjoy life blah blah blah."
But the fact is ultimately you will become a member of society and so you have to (somewhat) cave into societies standards of success (getting a high GPA etc.) You say it now that you don't want money and fancy cars and just want to enjoy life. I'm not saying money is the key to happiness... what I am saying is: Why sell yourself short? Why cut off those possibilities? Ask the people who are flipping burgers for a life if they would want a fancy car and a big house. Perspectives change as you get older, just remember you don't know the answer to everything... especially not the meaning of life
getting a good GPA is not very hard... it takes maybe 6 hours extra a week spent on school!
Certainly no one will argue that being wealthy in and of itself is a BAD thing

"I have watched a great many very smart people spend their whole of their lives slaving away at stuff they know is meaningless for the sake of someone else's priorities"
I guess my core disagreement with you is that GPA sucks away time that could be better used doing other things
... really it doesn't... do a cost benefit analysis:
6-7 extra hours spent in school /week == 1 to 1.5 Grade points
1 to 1.5 Grade points == The difference between going to college or not.
getting a 2.0 up to a 3.0 or 3.5 is an immense difference ! Even if you are not the type to go to college...
You will ultimately want to do some kind of education correct? (technical school etc.) The better you
do in HS the easier it is to go where you want.
... and you will need to suceed once you are in technical school as well, so you might as well get some practice.

[CommanderRachek]

It was illuminating to get the perspective of a mentor from Steve Wherry, but I still have a few beefs. The main problem I have is that you (and a great many other people) seem to be of the opinion that high schoolers need to be led by the hand. By the time you are sixteen or so years old, you ought to be able to make reasonable decisions regarding where to put your efforts. If someone on our team couldn't make those decisions wisely, our Fearless Leader would no doubt take him or her aside and give them some friendly advice, but it is ultimately not his decision and he knows that. I highly, highly, highly doubt that he would tell someone he was not welcome in the shop because of their grades alone. In fact, he is somewhat of a specialist in accepting kids regardless of their grades.

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry

I guess that I am a little taken back by some of the short-sighted statements of students who represent a school prior to representing the FIRST team (whether you like it or not).

The way I see it, I only represent my school as much as I wish to, which varies somewhat according to the context. Within the context of FIRST, I feel that I represent my team far more than I represent my school. After all, it was my team, not my school, who built our robot.

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry

Common statements have been, "Well I am bored and do not want to do homework, but FIRST interests me and allows me to grow."

What's wrong with that?

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry

Students who get an F or two D's are suspended from our team until the next progress report. If FIRST is that important to them, then they will get there head on straight and play the game.

Why is it that it is the student who has to "get there head on straight"? Why not the teachers and administrators who are barring this kid from doing something he likes and is good for him? If some student is a major player on a FIRST team, he's probably not just some lazy jerk. It could be his grades aren't his greatest priority, or it could be he's just not very good at the game and would have to devote all his time to school in order to get even a C average.

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry

In most professions, employees at times have to complete tasks that seem to have no purpose.

So, what, I should waste my time now, too? If I wanted to do that, I'd organize my bottle cap collection.

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

And I see where you are coming from when you say that not everyone has to have the same goals to be successful. That is often the viewpoint many teens have ... that "I don't want to get good grades, I don't want to cave to socities standards, I want enjoy life blah blah blah."
But the fact is ultimately you will become a member of society and so you have to (somewhat) cave into societies standards of success (getting a high GPA etc.)

I'm not saying I don't have to contribute to society; I think everyone has a number of duties to human civilization as a whole, one of which is to do something productive with your life. The trick is finding something you love to do that is also useful. For example, I love to play the banjo, but I could never forgive myself if all I did was sit around on my porch and play "Cripple Creek." It would be hugely unfair to everyone who has fed, clothed, and educated me, and who have provided clean water and decent health care and safe streets, etc. However, if I was to become a music teacher, for instance, and teach other people to play and love the banjo, that would be a different story.

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

Certainly no one will argue that being wealthy in and of itself is a BAD thing

Actually, some people would, but they're crazy.

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

You say it now that you don't want money and fancy cars and just want to enjoy life. I'm not saying money is the key to happiness... what I am saying is: Why sell yourself short? Why cut off those possibilities? Ask the people who are flipping burgers for a life if they would want a fancy car and a big house. Perspectives change as you get older, just remember you don't know the answer to everything... especially not the meaning of life

Forgive me if I came across as if I thought I knew everything. I know I don't, and I'm glad. It would be kind of annoying if I did. Everyone would always be asking me stuff. What I do know is that it's nuts to deliberately spend your whole life wishing you were doing something else, and that that applies even when you're in high school.

[Salik Syed]

Oh know, you definitely didn't give me that impression... in fact I thought you made some really good points.

I'm also a teenager myself, and one thing I've finally found out is that adults/parents don't always know what's best for you... even though they may act like they do. However I've also learned that neither do I... nor anyone for that matter. Life is a wierd situation... you have one chance to live it right, and nothing to guide you except your gut and other people and perhaps religion... and every piece of advice from those sources is essentially unprovable.

The problem is alot of people some times have the wrong "gut" feeling ... and end up screwing themselves over for the rest of their lives through bad decisions they made when they were young.

Oh and I'm definitely not suggesting barring people from robotics teams because of their grades, I was just saying that in the end a persons GPA will matter... and that they should try and keep it up as much as possible, even if it involves tedious, mind-numbing soul sucking work.
I hated having to keep my GPA up and getting good grades and such...so I know exactly where you are coming from.

[Chris Fultz]

The way I see it, I only represent my school as much as I wish to, which varies somewhat according to the context. Within the context of FIRST, I feel that I represent my team far more than I represent my school. After all, it was my team, not my school, who built our robot.

From the FIRST web site, your are representing:

"Aurora Flight Sciences/Falls Church City Television & George Mason High School"

All of your actions, comments and efforts are reflected back on your team and your team sponsors, including your school. Whether you choose to or not, you are representing you school as a member of FIRST Team 1418.

This is my last post in this thread, and I end with this thought -

I invite you to come back to this thread in about 5 years, read all that is written, and see if your views have changed. Experience says you will have a significantly different view of the world....

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

...For example, I love to play the banjo, but I could never forgive myself if all I did was sit around on my porch and play "Cripple Creek." It would be hugely unfair to everyone who has fed, clothed, and educated me, and who have provided clean water and decent health care and safe streets, etc. However, if I was to become a music teacher, for instance, and teach other people to play and love the banjo, that would be a different story.

i may be misreading your posts, but it sounds almost as if you are doing FIRST (and plan to continue to do FIRST) purely for the enjoyment, and excluding just about everything else.

if that is the case, you might as well sit on your porch and play the banjo.

first and foremost, FIRST was created to encourage people to pursue careers in technology and science, not to build robots for fun. if all you ever do is build competive robots, you aren't really improving society.

i've been in FIRST for 7 years now. i've been a mentor for the last 4. granted, i've had a lot of fun, and probably wouldn't do this if i hadn't enjoyed myself. but i also wouldn't have been nearly as devoted as i am now if i didn't think i was helping change society for the better.

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

I'm also a teenager myself, and one thing I've finally found out is that adults/parents don't always know what's best for you... even though they may act like they do. However I've also learned that neither do I... nor anyone for that matter. Life is a wierd situation... you have one chance to live it right, and nothing to guide you except your gut and other people and perhaps religion... and every piece of advice from those sources is essentially unprovable...

i agree with just about everything you say, with the exception of this. while its true that no-one on this earth always knows whats best for you, i'd expect that your parents are gonna be right more than any other source (including yourself). they've been around a lot longer than you, and (with a few exceptions) they know you as well as, if not better than, yourself. they did raise you, after all. they've known you all your life. looking back on my life so far, my parents track record is alot better than mine.

<EDIT>

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

I invite you to come back to this thread in about 5 years, read all that is written, and see if your views have changed. Experience says you will have a significantly different view of the world....

this is true; if you want proof, go back and read my first posts, and compare 'em to what (and how often) i post now.

</EDIT>

[Steve Wherry]

In response to the following quote:

"Why is it that it is the student who has to "get there head on straight"? Why not the teachers and administrators who are barring this kid from doing something he likes and is good for him? If some student is a major player on a FIRST team, he's probably not just some lazy jerk. It could be his grades aren't his greatest priority, or it could be he's just not very good at the game and would have to devote all his time to school in order to get even a C average."

The point that we strongly disagree on is what the school demands from all extra-curricular participants, it will demand from a FIRST team. What if a football player has the same attitude. That player could be preparing for his future in professional football, and a football player doesn't need all of this so-called education hoopla. Suddenly, the school is full of a bunch of teen-agers who "know what they need and are going to do it their way." Sounds scary.

The school curriculum and minimum expectations are what they are. If you want to change that, then you need to put your time and efforts into working with state legislators and curriculum directors in schools. However, without a decent educational background to gain their respect, they are probably not going to listen.

[Scott Ritchie]

Cheif Delphi meet Steve. Steve meet chief Delphi. I hope FIRST is ready for this.

That is the most reputation points I have seen from only 6 total posts.

[Ben Martin]

As a student, I have to keep my grades up, or I won't be allowed on the team. It's as simple as that.

Knowing some of my teachers, if I was doing poorly in their classes, they wouldn't allow me to miss the seven days of school I miss per year to participate on Cyber Blue. My teachers want me to go to college and eventually get a good job. To do that, though, I need to keep a decent GPA.