2 Speed Transmissions in the Future

[Jherbie53]

Will 2 speed transmissions be used by more teams in the future? I don't know how many teams use them, but it seems like more and more are using them as time goes on.

Are they easy enough that rookie teams feel super confidant in them? I know it's not easy for some rookie teams put together a dominate robot, even thought they can and do, and I don't even know if some rookie teams have used 2 speed transmissions.

Can FIRST Design, or have someone design, a 2 speed transmission that is just as reliable as the KOP transmissions from 05' and 06'? And will they become affordable enough to be in the Kit Of Parts?

I would like to get the FIRST communities thought's on these questions.

[Rich Ross]

Anyone that has the dough can buy an AM shifter. reliable, good ratios, and not too heavy. Thats one of the more common 2 speeds out there. Between that and the Dewalt, transmissions arent too hard to make.

BUilding your own is where things get tough.

[AdamHeard]

The use of shifting transmissions will increase as long as there is a benefit. In the recent era of first, more often than not they are useful.

I don't think they should be in the KOP however. Giving rookie teams a fully functioning gearbox is pretty generous already.

[Cory]

Too expensive to put them in the KOP. an extra $660 per kit, with 1200 teams would be nearly $800k that would have to come from somewhere.

Sure you could lower costs, but not enough to make it financially viable.

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Cory

Too expensive to put them in the KOP. an extra $660 per kit, with 1200 teams would be nearly $800k that would have to come from somewhere.

Sure you could lower costs, but not enough to make it financially viable.

So are you saying that team's wouldn't agree upon adding $500 to the reg. fee to be able to have durable (not BB!) trans in the kits from years to come?

I would figure many teams would jump to it if all they had to do was pay an extra $500 to the reg. fee to get those in the kits.

[EricH]

Before 2005, there were shifting transmissions in the KOP. Bosch drill trannies, which interfaced with the Bosch drill motor found in those kits. Anyone remember those? (Oh, and Adam--you should know about the "fully functioning" gearboxes in the 2007 kit--or were those KOP?)

There are 2-speeds out there that aren't AM, but they might not work with what we've got available. If 254/968 marketed their gearbox, especially if it was less than the AM 2-speed, I'd probably take a close look at it. Now, that still won't compare to having a 2-speed in the KOP, but I'd rather see a team look in the box, say, "this is not what we need," and then go about modifying the kit gearbox or designing a new one or otherwise thinking outside the (kit) box to get what they want.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

So are you saying that team's wouldn't agree upon adding $500 to the reg. fee to be able to have durable (not BB!) trans in the kits from years to come?

I would figure many teams would jump to it if all they had to do was pay an extra $500 to the reg. fee to get those in the kits.

No, they wouldn't.

$500 is a very significant amount of money for a lot of FIRST teams. More than many have available to build their entire robot with.

Any increase in price would not be well received by the FIRST community, even if it is "only" $500.

In addition, there's no reason that a low cost, reliable alternative to the banebots transmissions can't be included in the kit.

[RyanN]

Originally Posted by Cory

No, they wouldn't.

$500 is a very significant amount of money for a lot of FIRST teams. More than many have available to build their entire robot with.

Any increase in price would not be well received by the FIRST community, even if it is "only" $500.

In addition, there's no reason that a low cost, reliable alternative to the banebots transmissions can't be included in the kit.

I would think that FIRST could get with some company to manufacture parts for a 2 speed transmission so that the total cost of each transmission is less than $50 each. Our 2005 and 2006 2 speed transmissions were custom made by us and they were very reliable, and I would say that the materials in it did not go over $30 per transmission.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by RyanN

I would think that FIRST could get with some company to manufacture parts for a 2 speed transmission so that the total cost of each transmission is less than $50 each. Our 2005 and 2006 2 speed transmissions were custom made by us and they were very reliable, and I would say that the materials in it did not go over $30 per transmission.

There's no possible way, be it by buying gearstock, or individual gears that the cost of materials will be less than $30 per transmission. I wouldn't see any possible way for the material to be less than even $75-100 per side.

The Banebots transmissions hover around $50, and they have very poor build quality. It simply wouldn't be possible to pay for materials, and labor to machine all the parts required to make a two speed transmission.

[Michael Corsetto]

I think that if FIRST keeps pumping out games with the same relatively flat field with maximum of 30? inclines to climb, you will see more and more 2 speeds. There just isn't a challenge for teams to design anything besides a basic 4"-8" diameter, 4 or 6 wheel drive train. Its related to the arms race thread, but on a broader scale. Most teams wont try to make a V6 or anything like that, but with all the previous designs out there, a 2 speed isn't that much of a stretch for any semi-experienced team.

And there are teams out there that have almost reached perfection as far as 2 speeds go. 254/968 has the most elegant and thought out drive train I have ever seen. And it helps that they have had at least since 2004 to work out their design. I'm not quite sure if you can get any better than a 1.4 pound 2 speed gearbox (great job Travis btw) and I would doubt their entire drive train came out to be over 35 pounds. Thats 85 pounds to do whatever else you want to do with the robot! Being the one who is always working on arms/manipulators, it would be nice to be able to make something without having to worry if the drive train is gonna take up all of the robots weight.

In short, yes, as long as games continue to have fairly repetitive field layouts, 2 speed will become better and popular-er (is that a word? )

Mike C.

[Doug G]

Shifting Transmissions are somewhat overhyped. We were very competitive this year and didn't use them. 2006's game seem to be wide open and we used AM shifters and got good use from them. You just got to look at the game to see if it's worth your investment of time and money. If they release another game like 2004 First frenzy, I suspect most experienced teams would invest time and resources to other robot attributes.

This seems to be a thread twice a year on average.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

The assumption here also seems to be that tank-drive wheeled robots are the future of FIRST.

Omni and meccanum are barely controllable in low gear. Swerve drives are complex enough without the addition of multiple speeds. Track-drives have a tendency to throw belts at high speeds...

Not that these drive systems are incompatible with 2-speeds, its just that most teams are unlikely to build them.

There are other-ways to improve drivetrian usefulness then to add another gear...

[114Klutz]

Originally Posted by Rex114

I think that if FIRST keeps pumping out games with the same relatively flat field with maximum of 30? inclines to climb, you will see more and more 2 speeds. There just isn't a challenge for teams to design anything besides a basic 4"-8" diameter, 4 or 6 wheel drive train. Its related to the arms race thread, but on a broader scale. Most teams wont try to make a V6 or anything like that, but with all the previous designs out there, a 2 speed isn't that much of a stretch for any semi-experienced team.

And there are teams out there that have almost reached perfection as far as 2 speeds go. 254/968 has the most elegant and thought out drive train I have ever seen. And it helps that they have had at least since 2004 to work out their design. I'm not quite sure if you can get any better than a 1.4 pound 2 speed gearbox (great job Travis btw) and I would doubt their entire drive train came out to be over 35 pounds. Thats 85 pounds to do whatever else you want to do with the robot! Being the one who is always working on arms/manipulators, it would be nice to be able to make something without having to worry if the drive train is gonna take up all of the robots weight.

In short, yes, as long as games continue to have fairly repetitive field layouts, 2 speed will become better and popular-er (is that a word? )

Mike C.

More popular. But indeed, the issue with two speed gearboxes is now not mechanical skill or cost, both of them are now remedied by AndyMark.

The question is now, is it actually needed? For example, this year showed little advantage to be gained by using a two speed gearbox. The field was not open, and the two sides next to the rack could easily be blocked by opposing machines. I do not believe it was worth the time and weight to implement a two speed gearbox.

The second issue is - how easy is the gearbox to implement? Manpower is a significant issue. While AndyMarks are rather simple to implement - it may require the addition of subsystems, such as pneumatics, which might not be viable if time is short. Custom gearboxes are notorious in this respect - ours went over the deadline significantly. While this was fixed, it took time away from some other projects.

My personal preference has always been to eschew shifting - because it simply is complicated and time consuming. However, if two speeds actually does give a substantial advantage in game - then by all means, go for it.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by 114Klutz

The question is now, is it actually needed? For example, this year showed little advantage to be gained by using a two speed gearbox. The field was not open, and the two sides next to the rack could easily be blocked by opposing machines. I do not believe it was worth the time and weight to implement a two speed gearbox.

I know several teams who would entirely disagree with you based on the success they had this year. I had to play defense first hand on 254/968 and 330 on many occasions... What made them stand out over other teams was their driver's ability to evade and maneuver in high gear, and resist pushing in low gear.

These are just first hand examples, I'm sure many other teams that were offensive robots can thank their success on the extra edge their drive gave them. 1114 and 1270 from curie are another two. Also, 45 and 1902 in Galileo used them well.

I think what is more important than perceived game environment is whether or not the driver can effectively utilize the advantage.

Usually the added cost in weight and work is minimal compared to not using them. I wish we had used shifters this year; They would actually weigh less than the 3 motor workaround we did and would be just about as complicated to install.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by RyanN

I would think that FIRST could get with some company to manufacture parts for a 2 speed transmission so that the total cost of each transmission is less than $50 each. Our 2005 and 2006 2 speed transmissions were custom made by us and they were very reliable, and I would say that the materials in it did not go over $30 per transmission.

OK, material cost $30. Now, how long, in man-hours, did it take to build each transmission? Now, take that number and figure a minimum of $10 per man-hour. (Which, by the way, is a very low-paid machinist.) Now, do you see why trannies are so expensive? Oh, and throw in a bit for design, while you're at it.

The cost for a transmission (no profit margin) is: materials+labor+overhead (electricity, etc.).