Grades and Student Travel, Etc

[Kelly]

The implication throughout this thread has been that anyone in FIRST who doesn't have fantastic grades is only doing badly in school because he or she is too lazy to do better. I'm sure there are many of these kids, as I've met a few on my team. But we're leaving out another group of kids, that is also very well represented on team 1418. These are the kids who are quite smart, and put a lot of effort into school but, for various reasons, still have trouble maintaining grades. Intelligence manifests itself in all sorts of ways, only one of which is rewarded in a school setting. A student could have fantastic mechanical skills, or be really good at reasoning, but have trouble recalling facts and applying algorithms quickly and in complete sentences. Is it really fair to include this sort of student from FIRST, whose unique talents would be a huge help on any team, because he or she isn't smart in the exact way school expects students to be.

I'm not saying forming complete sentences isn't useful, I just think it's no reason to exclude anyone from FIRST

[4throck]

Originally Posted by RogerR

i may be misreading your posts, but it sounds almost as if you are doing FIRST (and plan to continue to do FIRST) purely for the enjoyment, and excluding just about everything else.

if that is the case, you might as well sit on your porch and play the banjo.

first and foremost, FIRST was created to encourage people to pursue careers in technology and science, not to build robots for fun. if all you ever do is build competive robots, you aren't really improving society.

i've been in FIRST for 7 years now. i've been a mentor for the last 4. granted, i've had a lot of fun, and probably wouldn't do this if i hadn't enjoyed myself. but i also wouldn't have been nearly as devoted as i am now if i didn't think i was helping change society for the better.


i agree with just about everything you say, with the exception of this. while its true that no-one on this earth always knows whats best for you, i'd expect that your parents are gonna be right more than any other source (including yourself). they've been around a lot longer than you, and (with a few exceptions) they know you as well as, if not better than, yourself. they did raise you, after all. they've known you all your life. looking back on my life so far, my parents track record is alot better than mine.

<EDIT>



this is true; if you want proof, go back and read my first posts, and compare 'em to what (and how often) i post now.

</EDIT>

Last time I checked, one person is not a representative sample. I truly am sick and tired of the belittlement of high schoolers that exists not only in this post, but is a heavy undercurrent in this thread. Saying that I must keep up my grades "for my future" is very sweet of you, but making vague references to how an extra four years in a university setting makes you somehow smarter and more qualified than I am about the situation that I am currently in is downright insulting.

Secondly, where do you get off telling people how and why they should be doing FIRST? FIRST may be for recognition and inspiration and whatnot, but we paid our money, and if we do it for fun or the hell of it or anything else, what business is it of yours? The purpose of FIRST is to be fun. Why? So that it can inspire.

And if you had actually read her post, you would realize that there is nothing wrong with what she is saying. She is simply repeating a FIRST mantra. She loves science and engineering, and that is why she is doing FIRST. In what greater way could FIRST succeed in its mission?

Chris Fultz said

From the FIRST web site, your are representing:

"Aurora Flight Sciences/Falls Church City Television & George Mason High School"

All of your actions, comments and efforts are reflected back on your team and your team sponsors, including your school. Whether you choose to or not, you are representing you school as a member of FIRST Team 1418.

This is my last post in this thread, and I end with this thought -

I invite you to come back to this thread in about 5 years, read all that is written, and see if your views have changed. Experience says you will have a significantly different view of the world....

This is neither an official forum of FIRST, nor is this an official communique from team 1418. Rachel is posting, as she said, in her capacity as a private individual, not in anyway connected with her team. To try to scare people off with false threats and warnings about what they can or cannot say here is a terrible precedent to set. I give our wonderful sponsors enough credit to assume that they know when someone is speaking on their behalf.

BMartin 234 said
As a student, I have to keep my grades up, or I won't be allowed on the team. It's as simple as that.

Knowing some of my teachers, if I was doing poorly in their classes, they wouldn't allow me to miss the seven days of school I miss per year to participate on Cyber Blue. My teachers want me to go to college and eventually get a good job. To do that, though, I need to keep a decent GPA.

Argumentum ad verecundiam has no effect on me.

For the record, I only speak on behalf of myself. Like everyone else here.

[Steve W]

Why go to school at all? We all know how smart we are. School is another way to put down the brightest of young people. Force them to follow our standards. Why you ask? Just because we want all students to be miserable.

Really, that is the farthest thing from the truth that I could come up with at this time. Here I sit, almost 54 years old, taking a brake from studying. I HATE school but I must do it to stay employed. I dropped out of school after grade 12 (we had a grade 13 then) and did dead end jobs for a few years. Back in 1974 I got lucky and got hired by my present employer. I was thankful that they trained me and taught me how to work. I now make a good wage but I still need to improve myself.

What have I learned over the last 33 years? The first thing is that I should have stayed in school. I could have been so much more. I am not a stupid person (this is not a question) except for the fact that I thought that I knew best. I did not listen to my parents, teachers or friends. I knew I was good and any company that snapped me up was getting a deal. After 3 years of dead ends I started to realize that MAYBE I wasn't as smart as I thought. I quit the job I had and started working for less at the company I am with now. I took the opportunities as they came and pushed to make myself better. It took many years of long hours and hard work to struggle to be where I am now. The point is, that was then, this is now. I could never get my foot in the door now. No matter how good I am I could ot even get a second look. Companies look at your education. The reason is not always for the marks. They want a person that will meet the demands put on them, whether right or wrong. They want someone with perseverance that will finish the job put in front of them. I have dealt with a lot of university grads that are really not that bright. I have learned more in the school of hard knocks than they will ever know. They are hired because of the fact that when they were told to do something, like it or not, they did it.

As a mentor I would really question what I was doing if I took a student, worked with them in FIRST and didn't care about them getting good grades. Some students can get 90+ without trying and are capable of more. They should be expected to do better. Those that can only get 60 may be trying their hardest to achieve that mark. I am fine with that and would welcome them on my team. Those that are not passing need help not more distraction. If having them on the team would allow other members to help them and tutor them and their marks could improve then we are inspiring and again I am OK with that. I am not OK if a student comes and doesn't want to do better at school. This student will not be a good influence on the team and other students. FIRST is meant to make people better and show them what they are capable of. To do that we really need a base. SCHOOL. It may not be perfect but it is there and it is proven. You not only learn subjects but also disciplines. You learn how to study, memorize, prioritize and other important traits. You may not understand why now but as was said earlier, come back in 5 years and reread.

As the old saying goes " when I was 14 my parents were so dumb. It is amazing how much they learned in the last 7 years"

[JaneYoung]

I'm thinking about how the original post was made regarding an article that Mr. Mike Martus, teacher, wrote about FRC Team 47, Chief Delphi. It is an excellent article. Teams vary in how they are run/managed and how they achieve measures of success. Chief Delphi is one of our respected Hall of Fame teams and we don't have very many of those.

If I had questions regarding an aspect of the article, such as the grading decisions and how that impacts travel to events and other aspects of the team, I would contact Mr. Martus and ask him to explain or discuss the aspects with me that I find troubling or have difficulty understanding, rather than distorting them to this point in this thread. The truth is that teams develop ways to grow and achieve success and it works. And school academics is an integral part of it.

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by 4throck

Last time I checked, one person is not a representative sample. I truly am sick and tired of the belittlement of high schoolers that exists not only in this post, but is a heavy undercurrent in this thread. Saying that I must keep up my grades "for my future" is very sweet of you, but making vague references to how an extra four years in a university setting makes you somehow smarter and more qualified than I am about the situation that I am currently in is downright insulting.

everytime you post on here under a screen-name that has your team name or number, or wear you team shirt (or some other team paraphernalia), for better or worse, you are representing your team, and therefore your school and your sponsors. as unfair as it is, it would be niave to assume otherwise. this goes doubly so for someone who has "leadership" in their title.

and you're right; assuming that i'm smarter than anyone simply because i'm older is mighty presumptious of me. but if you read this thread, you'll probably note that a great many mentors, teachers, and veterans are saying more or less the same thing. this seems to suggest a trend.

Originally Posted by 4throck

Secondly, where do you get off telling people how and why they should be doing FIRST? FIRST may be for recognition and inspiration and whatnot, but we paid our money, and if we do it for fun or the hell of it or anything else, what business is it of yours? The purpose of FIRST is to be fun. Why? So that it can inspire.

you're completely and totally right. you paid your money to do FIRST, and can do whatever you want. but don't claim that by building a robot you are changing culture; there's more to FIRST than that. if all any of us ever did was build robots, then FIRST would quickly become stagnant; no new members or teams would be reached, and no new real world problems would be solved. there's a world outside of FIRST, and FIRST was created to change that world for the better. to presume that FIRST is simply here for your enjoyment is to demote it to nothing more than an expensive game.

and furthermore, it appears that a public school is in your team name; i can only assume that many/most of the students on your team attend this school. while i may not be a taxpayer in your state, i think i speak on the bahalf of them when i say that they would like you to take advantage of all that money they pay for you to attend that school (i.e., taxes, lottery, etc.), and not blow off your classes as a waste of time. they paid their money too.

Originally Posted by 4throck

And if you had actually read her post, you would realize that there is nothing wrong with what she is saying. She is simply repeating a FIRST mantra. She loves science and engineering, and that is why she is doing FIRST. In what greater way could FIRST succeed in its mission?

as i stated above, there's more to FIRSt than just building a robot. its a means to an end, not an end in itself. sometimes you need to step back and realize this.

[CommanderRachek]

A number of people have kindly informed me that if I were to return to this thread in five years or so, that I would be shocked to read what I have written here, and will no doubt shake my grizzled old head at what a fool I used to be. This remains to be seen. The truth or untruth of this assertion notwithstanding, I find it rather insulting on a few levels:

1) It implies, or rather states, that because I am but 18 years old, I am thoughtless and ill informed.

2) It implies/states that what thoughts I do have are shallow, indistinct, and foolish.

3) It implies/states that people who are 23 years old are obviously much more mature/well-informed/thoughtful than I am.

I contend that I have given this particular subject a lot of thought in the last several years, and that having nearly completed thirteen years of public schooling (including kindergarten), I am as well informed on the topic as anyone else.

I understand that not everyone meant this comment in this manner; you were merely offering some perspective. I can appreciate this. However, I do not need to be reminded that opinions sometimes change. Beyond that, I cannot speak for my future self, only for my present self, and I think my present self is right on this matter.

Originally Posted by RogerR

if you read this thread, you'll probably note that a great many mentors, teachers, and veterans are saying more or less the same thing. this seems to suggest a trend.

The trend is obvious: everyone older than me thinks exactly alike.

Given how little you seem to think of my intellect, I am not surprised that you would try to put this particular fallacy over on me.

Originally Posted by RogerR

everytime you post on here under a screen-name that has your team name or number, or wear you team shirt (or some other team paraphernalia), for better or worse, you are representing your team, and therefore your school and your sponsors. as unfair as it is, it would be niave to assume otherwise. this goes doubly so for someone who has "leadership" in their title.

It is true, I cannot completely rid myself of associations with my school (or Aurora Flight Sciences or Falls Church Community Television) within the context of FIRST. I never said that I can, and I have no particular desire to. What I said was that my team comes first. Being a leader of my team only makes me take that even more seriously. I repeat: it was my team, not my teachers, who designed and built our robot.

Speaking of building robots: I can't speak for the rest of my team, but I do FIRST because it is fun and allows me to better myself. I believe Dean Kamen's goal to "change the culture" is a noble one, and I fully support it. I certainly do what I can to recruit kids to the program, but I don't participate in FIRST with the express purpose of changing the world. To imply that this (or any other way) is the only legitimate way to participate is incredibly arrogant.

Originally Posted by RogerR

while its true that no-one on this earth always knows whats best for you, i'd expect that your parents are gonna be right more than any other source (including yourself). they've been around a lot longer than you, and (with a few exceptions) they know you as well as, if not better than, yourself. they did raise you, after all. they've known you all your life. looking back on my life so far, my parents track record is alot better than mine.

So my parents, both accomplished professionals, should consult their respective parents before they do anything and abide by their decisions? If not, then at what age were they allowed to start ignoring them? At what age am I allowed to start ignoring my parents? Obviously, little kids need significant guidance from their parents, but why should I have to wait until the seemingly magic age of 23 (or perhaps you had some other age in mind?) before I'm allowed to think for myself? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: by the time you are sixteen or so years old, you really don't need to be led around by hand.

As for how my parents know me better than anybody: well, I've known me all my life, too, and unless my parents can somehow read my mind, I've known myself a lot better than anyone can possibly know another person.

Sure, my parents make a lot of right decisions, but they aren't right all the time. Also, part of the way they've learned how to make right decisions is by making wrong decisions. One reason I like my parents as much as I do is that they give me enough room to screw up now and again.

Finally, if my state and local taxpayers are worried about wasting their money on me any more than on anyone else, they shouldn't be. I take what I can from my classes. What the taxpayers should be worried about is that there is so little being given.

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

The trend is obvious: everyone older than me thinks exactly alike.

while that would be incorrect if applied over the entire population with respect to every subject, in the context of this thread, it seems to be largely true. what is much more notable, however, is that despite the fact that we have widely varying experiences (again with respect to the subject at hand), there still seems to be a general consensus (so far).

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

Speaking of building robots: I can't speak for the rest of my team, but I do FIRST because it is fun and allows me to better myself. I believe Dean Kamen's goal to "change the culture" is a noble one, and I fully support it. I certainly do what I can to recruit kids to the program, but I don't participate in FIRST with the express purpose of changing the world. To imply that this (or any other way) is the only legitimate way to participate is incredibly arrogant.

i agree. my point is that participating solely for your entartainment isn't going to bring about a cultural change, and to claim it will would be wrong headed.

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

So my parents, both accomplished professionals, should consult their respective parents before they do anything and abide by their decisions? If not, then at what age were they allowed to start ignoring them? At what age am I allowed to start ignoring my parents? Obviously, little kids need significant guidance from their parents, but why should I have to wait until the seemingly magic age of 23 (or perhaps you had some other age in mind?) before I'm allowed to think for myself? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: by the time you are sixteen or so years old, you really don't need to be led around by hand.

honestly, i'll listen to my parents (who still listen to their parents) as long as i/they live. the day you start ignoring them is the day you lose a lot of valuable insight into this world.

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

...Sure, my parents make a lot of right decisions, but they aren't right all the time. Also, part of the way they've learned how to make right decisions is by making wrong decisions. One reason I like my parents as much as I do is that they give me enough room to screw up now and again.

so you'd prefer to learn the hard way, rather than learn from their experience?

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

Finally, if my state and local taxpayers are worried about wasting their money on me any more than on anyone else, they shouldn't be. I take what I can from my classes. What the taxpayers should be worried about is that there is so little being given.

you aren't just being given an education, you're also being given a host of oppurtunities; if you do well, you could get scholarships, grants, etc. the taxpayers are (hopefully) investing in the future (you). it sounds migty ungrateful of you to turn your back on that.

[Steve W]

CommanderRachek, I hope that you do not feel that I am putting you down. My intent was to show that we all change and our perspectives also change. The more we learn the better we understand. That does not mean that it will change our minds or that we are right or wrong. What it does mean is that we can make better informed decisions. There are a lot of teenagers that have better perspective than me on many issues. As I get older and learn more then I too will hopefully get better perspectives.

I guess the most important part to look at is not what you know but what you don't. As we strive to better ourselves then we should also see with better clarity the things around us. That said, there are those that do not have open minds and will never see the bigger picture. I hope that FIRST students, young or old continue to seek knowledge and keep an open mind to the many great experiences that there are.

[Steve Wherry]

I think that most mentors are basically playing the percentages and are looking out for the best interest of students because that is what we do:

Good GPA + FIRST = Excellent probability of opportunities for success in the future with a developed skill-set and defined leadership skills

Good GPA + no FIRST = Very good probability of future success; possibly fewer opportunities?

Lower GPA + FIRST = Fewer opportunities, but a well developed skill-set and defined leadership skills

Lower GPA + no FIRST = definitely fewer opportunities

Although the above list is loosely defined, mentors want to help students open doors instead of the student potentially closing them. We want students to want to do well in the classroom and to always give their best effort in order to maximize their potential and be as good as they can be to avoid minimizing your future opportunities. Creating minimum team standards (grades) is one way to get students to take the classroom part seriously and become the total package.

The on-going debate on this thread is just because we care about students' futures and want to offer guidance (optional) in the present.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek

A number of people have kindly informed me that if I were to return to this thread in five years or so, that I would be shocked to read what I have written here, and will no doubt shake my grizzled old head at what a fool I used to be. This remains to be seen. The truth or untruth of this assertion notwithstanding, I find it rather insulting on a few levels:

1) It implies, or rather states, that because I am but 18 years old, I am thoughtless and ill informed.

No, it only points out the obvious, that you have less experience than those older than you.

2) It implies/states that what thoughts I do have are shallow, indistinct, and foolish.

No, simply that your thoughts and opinions are based on your experience to date.

3) It implies/states that people who are 23 years old are obviously much more mature/well-informed/thoughtful than I am.

Not at all. I know many 23-year-olds who are less responsible and mature than high school students, because they have not taken advantage of their circumstances and opportunities. However, many 23-year-olds are more mature than they were at 18, because they have continued to have experiences, have continued to take advantage of the opportunities offered to them, and have continued to learn.

I contend that I have given this particular subject a lot of thought in the last several years, and that having nearly completed thirteen years of public schooling (including kindergarten), I am as well informed on the topic as anyone else.

You are probably as well informed on the topics as anyone else who is in high school, and quite possibly more than most. Still, you do not know how your opinions on education today will serve you in your future. The advice being given to you in this thead is to not discard the opportunities you have now, because you never know if you will need the knowledge and experience in the future.

If your formal education, your school, your teachers, your counsellors and your administrators have failed you so far, that is a shame. The taxpayers in your community and state are not getting their values worth, and neither are you. There is no one best way to learn. However to say that because they are not teaching you in the manner best suited to you, so you are going to throw it all away, is short-sighted. There may be a time in the future that you wish you had better grades in high school, grades that you admit you could achieve if you only played their game. If you do not take advantage of what has been given you today, you can not retrieve it in the future.

[4throck]

Originally Posted by RogerR

everytime you post on here under a screen-name that has your team name or number, or wear you team shirt (or some other team paraphernalia), for better or worse, you are representing your team, and therefore your school and your sponsors. as unfair as it is, it would be niave to assume otherwise. this goes doubly so for someone who has "leadership" in their title.

and you're right; assuming that i'm smarter than anyone simply because i'm older is mighty presumptious of me. but if you read this thread, you'll probably note that a great many mentors, teachers, and veterans are saying more or less the same thing. this seems to suggest a trend.

and furthermore, it appears that a public school is in your team name; i can only assume that many/most of the students on your team attend this school. while i may not be a taxpayer in your state, i think i speak on the bahalf of them when i say that they would like you to take advantage of all that money they pay for you to attend that school (i.e., taxes, lottery, etc.), and not blow off your classes as a waste of time. they paid their money too.

"But to say that the race is a metaphor for life is to miss the point. The race is everything. It obliterates whatever isn't racing. Life is a metaphor for the race." --

You know, for someone with this quote in their signature, you seem to be surprisingly missing the point we are making. We are not wasting anyone's money, be it the taxpayers of Virginia or Falls Church. First of all, there is a generational contract that makes it the duty of the current taxpayers to pay for my education, as I will pay for my children, and for my parent's retirement. Secondly, who says we are not getting anything out of it? I am going to St. John's College starting in the fall, and for those of you who know what that is, they will know that there are few better ways to signal a love of learning. High School, alas, is not learning. I get what I can out of high school, but it is not my fault that the system is broken, nor is it the fault of the taxpayers. As things stand, grades can make or break your life, however, that does not mean they should. I particularly feel that they are terrible indicators of anything. And if society refuses to get rid of these impediments, then why does FIRST have to follow society? Last I checked, we were trying to make society better. We cannot attract more people to FIRST by excluding a subset of them. Those people with poor grades need FIRST in order to motivate them.

Originally Posted by RogerR

you're completely and totally right. you paid your money to do FIRST, and can do whatever you want. but don't claim that by building a robot you are changing culture; there's more to FIRST than that. if all any of us ever did was build robots, then FIRST would quickly become stagnant; no new members or teams would be reached, and no new real world problems would be solved. there's a world outside of FIRST, and FIRST was created to change that world for the better. to presume that FIRST is simply here for your enjoyment is to demote it to nothing more than an expensive game.

as i stated above, there's more to FIRSt than just building a robot. its a means to an end, not an end in itself. sometimes you need to step back and realize this.

You seem to be missing the point. Yes, FIRST must grow in order to change the culture, but that is irrelevant to the point I was making. When FIRST, by being a fun, exciting event, inspires people, not only to do compete, but to have a life goal, it has done its job. FIRST works because it's fun. Yes, it is a game. But it is an important game. Would society be served if all engineers and scientists were unhappy? People will go into these fields if they enjoy it, and not for any other reason. FIRST can accomplish that. Furthermore, if all that happens is that all of the members of a team go into unrelated fields with a positive view of science and technology, has FIRST failed? No. Because it still has improved the culture. Yes, FIRST is more than building a robot, and we realize that. But I'm not sure how any of what you said detracted from or even pertained to the statement I made earlier; that FIRST accomplishes its goal whether people do well in school or not.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by 4throck

...High School, alas, is not learning...

That doesn't agree with my experience. For me, High School was all about learning. Have things changed so much since I graduated? I don't think so. My son seems to be having essentially the same experience I did 27 years ago (with FRC instead of choir).

That said, I dimly remember the "slackers" who didn't take classes or grades seriously back then, and I'm fully aware of the same type of people today. I also recall a few obviously intelligent students in my day who didn't consider studying to be important -- and who then went on to go basically nowhere after school, probably because they hadn't realized that taking the "studying game" seriously would have prepared them for the nature of the world after school.

I recognize that the VOICE OF EXPERIENCE carries little weight to those who are not yet experienced themselves, so I won't expect you to take the advice of your elders without hesitation. But I encourage you not to dismiss it without hesitation either. While there is room in our world for the misfits to thrive, it is limited.

[Steve Wherry]

Originally Posted by 4throck

Would society be served if all engineers and scientists were unhappy? People will go into these fields if they enjoy it, and not for any other reason. FIRST can accomplish that.

Dear _________ University: I am a happy student who does little in the classroom to separate myself from the majority. I hate homework, my grades are a little lower than they probably should be, and teachers bore me...but I did FIRST, and Dean Kamen says "Hi". Please accept me into engineering school or at least allow me to do something in the field of science and technology. Remember, I am happy, and I want to be an engineer!

[CommanderRachek]

Originally Posted by Steve W

CommanderRachek, I hope that you do not feel that I am putting you down. My intent was to show that we all change and our perspectives also change.

I apologize that I came off as more than a little vindictive in my last post. I'm sure most (or at least some) of you meant well, and I was certainly being unnecessarily cranky. Be this as it may, I do not apologize for my essential point. I was annoyed because a large number of people, mostly older people, had written that my opinion will change as I get older, with the implication (intended or not) often (not always) being that my current view is immature and thus illegitimate. I found, and still find, this "you'll understand when you're older" tone (when used) to be extremely patronizing.

Certainly my opinions on a number of things will change over the next five years; perhaps this issue will be one of them. However, I can only lead my life now as I see fit now. That will be as true when I am 80 as when I am 18, or when I was eight, for that matter.

Again, I apologize to everyone who has given his or her comments with tact and good faith. My indignation was not meant for thee.

On a related subject:

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry

Dear _________ University: I am a happy student who does little in the classroom to separate myself from the majority. I hate homework, my grades are a little lower than they probably should be, and teachers bore me...but I did FIRST, and Dean Kamen says "Hi". Please accept me into engineering school or at least allow me to do something in the field of science and technology. Remember, I am happy, and I want to be an engineer!

1) I don't do FIRST to get into college, I do it to better myself. It's incredibly shallow to do something just because it looks good.

2) Such a juvenile and poorly written bit of text would probably do little to enhance the chances of a student at most colleges or universities. Certainly no school with a large applicant pool would look twice at it. This notwithstanding, I (a happy student who does little in the classroom to separate myself from the majority) was certainly not served ill by a brief and articulate explanation of why I was planning to withdraw from IBH Math at the end of the semester (my abbreviated message: "it bored me"). I was accepted into the Math program at Virginia Tech anyway, with a scholarship, for what it's worth.

3) Not everyone who does FIRST wants to be an engineer. Me, for instance. Or, better yet, David, my esteemed colleague who will be attending St. John's next year.

4) Not everyone who does FIRST wants to go to the kind of school where such a missive would be rejected or ignored out of hand. Again, just ask David.

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry

I think that most mentors are basically playing the percentages and are looking out for the best interest of students because that is what we do:

I maintain that trying to force fit kids into a certain set of standards is not looking out for their best interests, especially when that means cutting them out of something that really is good for them in a meaningful way. By your own list of antecedents and consequences, FIRST has little bearing on kids' opportunities for material success, but gives them "a well developed skill-set and defined leadership skills." In other words, FIRST builds character. Why would you want to shut someone out of that?

Lastly:

Yes, RogerR, sometimes I do like to do things the hard way. The path of least resistance is rarely the most informative or the most fun.

[4throck]

Wow, it seems that our schools are doing a terrible job. They apparently haven't taught most people here what a logical fallacy is. Ad verecundiam, anecdotal evidence, strawman, ad populum, red herrings, correlation implies causation, and the list goes on.