The Future of FIRST: BaneBots?

[ajlapp]

Give the contract to AndyMark.biz.

They are more than capable engineers who understand FIRST and who need the support of our community to do what we all wish we could do....turn our love of robotic competition and education into a career.

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

I think FIRST will use whatever gets donated to them, whether they are good for the application at hand, or not. See Rockwell Terminal Blocks...

While quite alot of stuff in the kit is free, like the terminal blocks, the modern transmissions in the kit from 2005-present have not been donations.

[Teched3]

Banebots (56 mm) will be back, better than ever for next year. We decided to use them on a drive system AFTER the problems surfaced regarding the carrier plates, and monitored them for excessive backlash during the season. We actually ran the original carrier plates through practice prior to shipping, two regionals, and into the Divisional Qtr Finals at Nationals, with no problems. We had spare, modified transmissions ready for replacement if needed, and just recently installed them for the several off-season events we attend (Beantown and WPI) so we could examine them disassembled. They are easily installed for Rookie teams, compact but a little heavy, but nonetheless, very beefy compared to what we were provided in the past. FIRST, as I have said in these forums, is about SOLVING problems, not just complaining about them. Banebots responded admirably in the limited time frames when the carrier plate problem surfaced. Many suggestions from teams concerning mods have not fallen on deaf ears at Banebots, and they plan on BETA testing some design changes on the transmissions before next season. In addition, I, along with many other experienced participants, offered design fixes in plenty of time for Nationals. Just look back at the posts in the General and Technical Forums on CD for information gladly shared with the FIRST community. In the meantime, many of us choose to use what is given us, and then be creative to make it better. If you want an erector set robot kit, then stick to VEX. Remember, it is rasre indeed, that a new design works first time out of the box. Just look around the pits and see how many robots are continually being modified as weak points become apparent during competition.

[mathking]

Even though we will probably not use them because the kids really want to design and use their own transmission next year, I think the Banebots transmissions with the modifications are a good idea. As Jason and several others pointed out, they can really make life easy for rookies teams. As I recall, this was the major reason for them to start offering a transmission in 2005, so that rookie (and any teams with a lack of engineering experience)teams could get up and running quickly.

[Alex.Norton]

My question is how many teams actually had problems with these. I know that many did have some problems but at our regional where most of the robots used these I never heard about one of these failing. The smaller ones failed but that was in cases where I looked and expected it to fail (arm). I suspect that there was a lot of ruckus over it and it made people nervous. Most of the failures that I heard of happened when the shaft wasn't properly supported. I think that FIRST will use these in the future, and while I hope that they do make improvements and test them is much more strenuous situations, I would be content to see the current iteration in the kit next year.

[Qbranch]

We didnt use the banebots gearbox on our actual robot but did use them on a practice chassis... they seem to be a good solid transmission.

-q

[John Gutmann]

Originally Posted by mathking

Even though we will probably not use them because the kids really want to design and use their own transmission next year, I think the Banebots transmissions with the modifications are a good idea. As Jason and several others pointed out, they can really make life easy for rookies teams. As I recall, this was the major reason for them to start offering a transmission in 2005, so that rookie (and any teams with a lack of engineering experience)teams could get up and running quickly.

They offered transmissions long before 2005. Ever hear of drill motors and the drill motor transmissions?

Something I don't think anybody has mentioned is that Banebots probally sees FIRST as a HUGE market. Which means they will try to make a better transmission. They have a chance to sell atleast 2000 units right off the bat for the KOPs. Then teams buy more for spares, etc.

-Joh

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Gabe

The only complaint about the 56mm transmissions is that they have not been battle tested.

Banebots as a company sells stuff primarily targetted to combat robotics, and their reputation is built on well built components that can survive severe abuse, more so than what we ever experience in FIRST. However, the 56mm never saw active battlebot duty as their other products, and I have to fault them for not having tested the transmissions for robotic combat.

My suggestion to Banebots is to hand over their transmission designs to real battlebot builders and see what they have to say. If it can survive that, then it can survive FIRST. If that happens then I will gladly welcome Banebots back to the Kit of Parts for 2008.

I'd say a better goal would be to test these transmissions to survive at least the equivalent of 200 FRC matches*, as in BattleBots you just have to survive longer than your opponent.

If they are still surviving at that time without needing excessive maintenance, then I'd include them in the 2008 KoP with higher quality components stock, if this was still the cheapest option. But at $98, the AM single speed trannies look like a very attractive competitor. (Especially since you'd no longer need to purchase the 2x CIM adapter plates!)


* Rounding up to a theoretical maximum number of matches on the playing field:
20 matches per competition (practice, qualifying, and elimination) x 8 competitions (2 Regionals, Championships, 5 Off-season Events) is 160 matches. Add in practice time (which a few hours of practice time can equal quite a few FRC matches), and 200 sounds reasonable.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

I'd say a better goal would be to test these transmissions to survive at least the equivalent of 200 FRC matches*, as in BattleBots you just have to survive longer than your opponent.

If they are still surviving at that time without needing excessive maintenance, then I'd include them in the 2008 KoP with higher quality components stock, if this was still the cheapest option. But at $98, the AM single speed trannies look like a very attractive competitor. (Especially since you'd no longer need to purchase the 2x CIM adapter plates!)


* Rounding up to a theoretical maximum number of matches on the playing field:
20 matches per competition (practice, qualifying, and elimination) x 8 competitions (2 Regionals, Championships, 5 Off-season Events) is 160 matches. Add in practice time (which a few hours of practice time can equal quite a few FRC matches), and 200 sounds reasonable.

I agree... combat robot components aren't always going to work for FIRST because they aren't made "built to last" timeframe as long as a FIRST robot.

[Greg Peshek]

Originally Posted by Budda648

I agree... combat robot components aren't always going to work for FIRST because they aren't made "built to last" timeframe as long as a FIRST robot.

I personally build combat robots. Although it may seem like the robots are smashed together and you hope the parts don't break, generally we try to engineer them so they don't break and last more than a whole competition (6ish fights if you go all the way). An article in this months SERVO actually talks about the engineering aspect of building the robots not to break.

I know if I put any part on my robots; gearboxes, electronics, anything I expect for what I paid for, I should get more than one competition out of them. Generally I like to get 4-5 competitions before I start replacing parts, although I have has some of my parts for 3 years now that still work.

Unfortunately I don't think the 56mm gearboxes will get tested in combat robots, due to the fact that motors such as Magmotors as included in battlekits.com will always out push these (based on my experience, not any real math behind that), but I'm thinking of incorporating these into my next combat robot to test the durability of these gearboxes.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Greg Peshek

I personally build combat robots. Although it may seem like the robots are smashed together and you hope the parts don't break, generally we try to engineer them so they don't break and last more than a whole competition (6ish fights if you go all the way). An article in this months SERVO actually talks about the engineering aspect of building the robots not to break.

I know if I put any part on my robots; gearboxes, electronics, anything I expect for what I paid for, I should get more than one competition out of them. Generally I like to get 4-5 competitions before I start replacing parts, although I have has some of my parts for 3 years now that still work.

Unfortunately I don't think the 56mm gearboxes will get tested in combat robots, due to the fact that motors such as Magmotors as included in battlekits.com will always out push these (based on my experience, not any real math behind that), but I'm thinking of incorporating these into my next combat robot to test the durability of these gearboxes.

The magmotors that I have seen are significantly more powerful (and expensive) than a small CIM.

[JesseK]

Our robot lasted over 35 matches + practice & tweak times with 2 small CIMs and the BB 56mm transmissions. I wasn't involved much with the drivetrain this year, but I do believe we made the plate modifications, and we also mounted the BB encoders directly on the shafts as well. Overall, the chassis + drivetrain came in at 32lbs -- not bad for a 2nd year team with limited manufacturing capability IMO. The only thing that broke on the drivetrain were 3 set screws that directly matched a gear to a wheel, which were easily replaced in Atlanta.

If they're tweaked, modified, and overall better, then I hope they're back. However, if we have to purchase/modify after the fact then I think we're better off making/purchasing our own transmissions (which alot of teams do anyways). I personally wish FIRST would create two different KoP's -- one that is slimmed down without the things that veteran teams make/have anyways, and then another (more expensive) kit that contains more parts (such as these transmissions) that rookie/less capable teams can get started with.

Of course, the veteran teams seem to use their excess parts to get rookie teams in their area started anyways (or get the community involved in FIRST), so I suppose it works out.