Goodbye IFI?

[Bharat Nain]

In light of recent events it seems to me like the writing is on the wall that FIRST wants to close its relationship with IFI. The question remains, what will happen to FIRST without IFI? And what is the reasoning behind the decisions?

FVC to FTC - Why would first rename the program unless they are planning to loose the vex platform in the future? I can understand why FIRST might not want to name a program after a product but the fact that JFLL and FLL are named after lego it makes it difficult to draw any other conclusions.

New control system for 09 - There have been no details of what the replacement will be, but it is assumed not to be made by IFI. There are reasons for this as the technology has gotten better, but why completely reinvent the wheel. In the past when upgrades have been made to the IFI system no announcement was made (Pbasic to C, memory upgrade, Victor 883 to 884, etc)

Changing from the old kit transmission to bane bots

In addition to the products made for FIRST many other things have been have contributed by this company with this it forces me to wonder if first cutting their nose off to spite their face? ie. What is the motivation for all of these “anti-IFI” decisions? I know I have assumed a few things but this is because I see some evidence that leads up to it. I am just concerned, like many of you.

I'm not sure of the motivation. It might be that FIRST was asked by IFI to move away so that IFI can move to other business fields. Who knows.

(side note: The new controller is not made by IFI, and it's really, really, really cool, or so some little birdy told me)

[Protronie]

Originally Posted by 114ManualLabor

I'm not sure of the motivation. It might be that FIRST was asked by IFI to move away so that IFI can move to other business fields. Who knows.

There is NO WAY a business would ask a customer like FIRST to "move away".
That would be like Cummings asking Paccar to buy their engines from someone else.

(Paccar build Kenworth & Peterbilt trucks)

[Smaug]

i dont knot it can go both ways first might find someone better and cheaper or they are designing there own products at cheeper cost.

[Eric Reed]

Originally Posted by Protronie

There is NO WAY a business would ask a customer like FIRST to "move away".
That would be like Cummings asking Paccar to buy their engines from someone else.

(Paccar build Kenworth & Peterbilt trucks)

Well....Disney? Small Parts? FIRST can be overwhelming for companies that would like to get on with other business that happens year round. Plus, I think they ask their suppliers to work on little to no margin.

[Kyle Love]

I would be very sad to see the IFI guys go away. The main IFI guys are very dedicated to FRC and their presence would be greatly missed.

[AdamHeard]

Well... Are they moving entirely away from IFI, or just the controller?

Because Victors (883s, 884s, HVs and Thors) really only work well with IFI controllers... Any other pwm device and they are kind of jittery and unreliable. Dispute it if you want, but it is a common fact in combat robots. I hope FIRST is aware of this before they start the '09 season.

Also, i checked the usfirst site and it still said "FVC"... am i missing something?

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Also, i checked the usfirst site and it still said "FVC"... am i missing something?

Here's what i recieved a few days ago:

After two successful pilot seasons as the FIRST Vex Challenge, we are
pleased to announce that the intermediate program, now named the FIRST
Tech Challenge, is an official FIRST program. It joins our continuum of
FIRST programs with the Junior FIRST LEGO League, FIRST LEGO League, and
FIRST Robotics Competition. This program will be structured similarly to
our pilot seasons and will continue to target an audience between the
FIRST LEGO League and FIRST Robotics Competition both to serve as a
feeder program into the FIRST Robotics Competition and to bring FIRST to
new geographic areas.


The next season of the FIRST Tech Challenge will begin in September
2007, and planning is underway. Team registration is expected to be open
on or shortly after July 11, 2007. Details on tournaments and season
information will be provided as soon as it is available. Please check
the FIRST website at www.usfirst.org for periodic updates.

The FIRST Tech Challenge will continue to use the Vex Robotics Design
System for this coming season. After registration opens, FIRST will
make Vex kits available at a price that only registered FIRST Tech
Challenge teams will be able to access. Teams may also use their
existing kits from previous years' competitions. Things may change in the future, but for now the Vex Robotics Design System is the official tournament kit.

We are excited to launch this new FIRST program sure to engage a greater
number of students.

[Adam Y.]

FVC to FTC - Why would first rename the program unless they are planning to loose the vex platform in the future? I can understand why FIRST might not want to name a program after a product but the fact that JFLL and FLL are named after lego it makes it difficult to draw any other conclusions.

You do know the definition of the word vex right? The word itself only draws negative connotations that it probably would be a good idea to change the name. Im still slightly confused about why IFI named it vex in the first place.

From what I understood the reason is purely financial. IFI wanted more money for the products and services they provide to FIRST (this is what I was told by someone who is connected to the issue).

With the feature set that we heard about recently I would expect the price to be higher from whoever is making the new control system.

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

You do know the definition of the word vex right? The word itself only draws negative connotations that it probably would be a good idea to change the name. Im still slightly confused about why IFI named it vex in the first place.

vex (vks)
tr.v. vexed, vex·ing, vex·es

2. To cause perplexity in; puzzle.
I believe this is the reason. And I agree with Bharat's assessment wondering why FIRST would change the name if changing to another kit was not eminent.

Also this paragraph from the recent correspondence from FIRST to the FVC partners.

The FIRST Tech Challenge will continue to use the Vex Robotics Design System for this coming season. After registration opens, FIRST will make Vex kits available at a price that only registered FIRST Tech Challenge teams will be able to access. Teams may also use their existing kits from previous years’ competitions. Since FIRST is actively exploring the use of other robotics platforms of similar scale for the FIRST Tech Challenge for future seasons, new teams for the Fall 2007 Season need to recognize that the platform that they purchase now is unlikely to be utilized in future competitions.

[dbell]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

Here's what i recieved a few days ago:


The FIRST Tech Challenge will continue to use the Vex Robotics Design
System for this coming season. After registration opens, FIRST will
make Vex kits available at a price that only registered FIRST Tech
Challenge teams will be able to access. Teams may also use their
existing kits from previous years' competitions. Things may change in the future, but for now the Vex Robotics Design System is the official tournament kit.

We are excited to launch this new FIRST program sure to engage a greater
number of students.

Very vexing!

From reading this I understand that the VEX control system will stay for this year, but it will likely not stay for long.
The reason for this might be because it is hard for FIRST to switch from the VEX control system to something else on such a short notice. But with another year they will be able to.
The reason for the name change may be because VEX will go bye bye soon.

i doubt that the reason for the name change is because of the meaning of the work vex. But i guess it could be.

just my thoughts.

[Madison]

While I agree that there're a lot of interesting things on the horizon for FIRST -- please think carefully about some of what y'all are posting as we move forward. I'm skeptical that many folks here have privileged information that has anything to do with FIRST, its relationship with IFI, or their plans for the future.

Unless you're willing to write explicitly from where you're speculating that, for example, something is "purely financial," it may be best to write nothing at all. The rumor mill is kind to nobody, generally.

So, in short, be careful not to make stuff up.

[Jonathan Norris]

I agree that we are all kind of getting the 'feeling' that IFI's tenure with FIRST may be coming to an end, and most of us have probably heard 'rumors' about the subject. But reality is that no one from either side has come out and said anything yet. The only real indication we have is that FIRST did not announce that the new controller was going to be provided by IFI again (which it could possibly be, though I would doubt that).

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

You do know the definition of the word vex right? The word itself only draws negative connotations that it probably would be a good idea to change the name. I'm still slightly confused about why IFI named it vex in the first place.

I'm not sure that IFI created the Vex package. RadioShack was selling them until the beginning of this year and IFI bought the "Vex" name and/or rights to sell the product. Who actually came up with the name? I have no clue.

I'm just glad they are being open about this transition period. I just bought a new starter kit for the upcoming year. Glad it won't be funds wasted.

[Pavan Dave]

Just another note to many of you who think FIRST is running from IFI.

Have any of you noticed that FIRST and Microsoft are partnering for the 2008 season(1)(2)? BUT if many of you didn't know Microsoft has its own little robotics program called Microsoft Robotics Studio(3)? Now I don't know if I'm crazy or doing some math wrong but, Microsoft is HUGE and has the potential to invest a TON of money into the FIRST programs. Now for me, FIRST + Microsoft = A new tree of ideas, parts, and people = Smaller companies (IFI) will be kicked out.

If my math is correct, FIRST would have a lot to gain from this new partnership and would have more access to more resources as well as more engineers who spend their lives on robotics programs/applications/etc helping out and mentoring. For participants of FIRST, this could mean everybody would have to learn new things, and try out a system that has yet to be proved effective, efficient, and reliable. For the smaller people it could mean that they are "too small" for FIRST even though they are adapting and growing enough to meet many teams' needs.

Think about that!

(1)http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...oft_FINAL2.pdf
(2)http://www.microsoft.com/indonesia/n...oboticsPR.aspx
(3)http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/robotics/default.aspx