Illegal or Legal?

[Pyro648]

Our team has recently come into the possession of a Logitech Wingman Extreme Digital 3D Joystick. However, when we looked to see if it would be legal or not to use as a control device for a robot, we couldn't find anything related to it. So our question is, would it be legal to use said joystick as a controller for one of our robots or not?

[mtaman02]

You can use whatever you want to control the robot. You could use the provided joysticks that are in the kit -or- custom designed controls / off-the shelf controllers to pilot and operate the robot.

[Danny Diaz]

Eh, this is one of those questions that is inevitably asked about a hundred times in different places throughout the season. The real answer is:

<R78> All equipment connected to the Joystick Ports of the IFI Operator 
Interface must be powered solely through the power available through 
the port. External power sources of any type are not permitted on any 
equipment connected to the Joystick Ports. Portable computing devices 
may not be connected to Joystick input ports on the Operator 
Interface. Power-passive devices (e.g. joysticks that draw their power 
solely through the IFI Operator Interface joystick port) are permitted.

So, not everything is permitted (like I cannot use my laptop as a programmatic input device) but joysticks/devices that are either (1) solely powered through the joystick port itself or (2) solely powered by the USB Chicklet are fine. IFI/FIRST just don't want you to accidentally turn your controller into a [really bad] toaster oven.

-Danny

[wilsonmw04]

That Saiteck is a USB stick isn't it? As long as you can use a USB adapter you should be legal.
I don't know if anyone else makes a USB port for the board, but IFI does. The only problem with their connector is that it only supports a limited number of sticks.

heres a list: (I prefer Siatek sticks because they can be used by lefties or righties with equal ease)

Logitech
Dual Action Gamepad
Logitech Cordless RumblePad 2
Attach 3 Joystick
Extreme 3D Pro Joystick
NASCAR Racing Wheel
Microsoft
XBox Controller
XBox 360 Controller
IntelliMouse Optical
Saitek
Aviator Joystick
ST290 Joystick
ST290 Pro Joystick

Does anyone know if this is a complete list?

[JBotAlan]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

I don't know if anyone else makes a USB port for the board, but IFI does.

According to <R83> under "The Robot" for the 2007 season:

<R83> All equipment connected to the joystick ports of the Operator Interface must be powered
solely through the power available through the port. External power sources of any type are
not permitted on any equipment connected to the joystick ports. Portable computing
devices can not be connected to joystick input ports on the Operator Interface. Powerpassive
devices (e.g. joysticks that draw their power solely through the Operator Interface
joystick port) are permitted. The one exception to this rule is Innovation First Incorporated
USB adapters (IFI Part Number USB-CHICKLET) may be used to connect USB devices to
the joystick ports of the Operator Interface. If used, this USB adapter must be powered with
a 7.2V battery similar to the back-up battery. Teams can not use power from the
competition port or any other source to power the USB adapter. The USB adapter must be
positioned within the OPERATOR CONSOLE so that the indicator lights may be seen during
inspection and operation in a match.

(yuck; Adobe left all the newlines in there...eww...)
So the only USB adapter you can use is the Chicklet, sold by IFI--nothing else is FIRST-legal.

Then again, FIRST might turn around next year and rule that the only way to control your robot involves wooden sticks and string with no USB adapters allowed at all. Or IFI might put USB ports on the OI. Or we may use PCs with WiFi to control the robot (not going to happen). The point of this is that there is no way to declare this "legal" or "not legal" in the future. What you propose would have been legal last year, but on Kickoff day you had better read your rulebook thoroughly before you assume this is legal.

JBot

[Astronouth7303]

They will add joysticks to your chicklet for a fee. I'm also willing to bet that they're working on generic support, so any joystick will work in a future version.

[Pyro648]

Thanks for the help guys and gals. It's very much appreciated. As for USB adapters, we won't be needing one for it. It came with a standard gameport connector.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Pyro648

Thanks for the help guys and gals. It's very much appreciated. As for USB adapters, we won't be needing one for it. It came with a standard gameport connector.

Have you actually tried it out yet? Most of the newer gameport-style joysticks do not conform to the gameport interface used by the OI. Because they have more buttons and axes than the gameport allows, they end up transmitting a special digital data stream over one of the digital inputs. This requires a custom driver on the host to interpret, which of course is not available on the OI. Given the number of buttons on this stick, I would assume this is the case.

If this is the case, you might be able to take it apart and re-wire the guts of it to match the OI interface. To get access to all the buttons and analog axes you'd need to hook it up to more than one gameport on the OI.