IFI Responds to the Community

[Adam Y.]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

[personal commentary, based upon publicly observable facts and trends in regards to FIRST]
As for alternatives, there are also a bunch of non-FVC Vex competitions out there already. Not that I'm biased or anything *cough cough*, but WPI's Savage Soccer competition is currently one of the largest and has been around for over 10 years! (They used to use modified RC-cars before the days of EDUbot/Vex.)


And with that in mind... If there is one thing I learned from FIRST, it is that when presented with a challenge, creative thinking and some sound sense will get you a solution to any problem in life. So that only means one thing...

I guess it'll be time to start the SECOND Vex Challenge!

Science and
Engineering
Can
Overcome
New
Dilemmas

Long Live Vex!

This whole entire scenario is what confuses me. They are looking for alternatives but as far as I can tell none exisistt to the level of Vex. They are going to reinvent the wheel and quite frankly that is dumb.

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by John Gutmann

Please don't say something like that unless you know 100% everything that has been said between parties.

Either one of two things could have happened here. Either IFI could be lying(I think not) about them finding out through CD or FIRST did not exactly communicate correctly with IFI. If I were a dedicated vendor to a company for many years, almost since its inception, I'd be very very angry to find out I have been let-go through a PUBLIC channel. Think about it, IFI supplies us with a large portion of electronics and software. This is almost half the robot. Furthermore, is it good that the community has to find out through the vendor that FIRST did not even communicate with them? Where is the gracious professionalism in this? Where is the inspiration in seeing FIRST go-against it's own values? Why should us teams follow these ideals and values when it is not demonstrated by the parent organization? Gracious Professionalism has everything to do with this decision because IFI is that big a part of FIRST. In the past few years so many people I know have been hired by IFI. Obviously, IFI must have faith in FIRST to do something like that. It is also a demonstration of gracious professionalism. While I agree that this is a business, I think FIRST is something more. Why FIRST has to let go IFI is none of my business and I will not speculate. However, I do not see any good reason for them to let go but FIRST might have a good reason. Either way, I think this situation could have been handled a whole lot better. I also hope to find out the full story one day. None of what I mentioned is speculation - it is very factual.

[Lil' Lavery]

Similar to the speculation that took place in the other threads, speculation and opinionated debate (without knowing the whole situation) here does no good. None of us know what FIRST and IFI did and did not do and know, so implying that FIRST did or didn't handle the situation correctly, or that FIRST did or didn't wrong IFI, etc. will just make matters worse. Especially when you create a new account to post your unsubstantiated, yet opinionated, thoughts without linking your opinion to your name and/or team/organization.
I highly doubt that anyone posting in this thread, aside of possibly IFI and/or FIRST representatives, knows any substantial truths about this situation, and speculating and/or taking sides will likely only cause the few facts we know of the future of IFI and FIRST to become distorted.

[Mike Schroeder]

Originally Posted by nuggetsyl

I do not know the whole story and I hope to learn about it one day. BUT where is FIRSTS GP to ifi????? They should never learn of something like this from cd. FIRST you must pratice what you preach.

*rant*
all right its been said before but i gotta say it again

Gracious Professionalism is a standard to live your life at....

Do NOT judge other people using the term Gracious Proffessionalism
*/rant*

(sorry to side track the thread.)

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

In general...please understand that sometimes in business, even non-profit business, certain companies have to make tough decisions in order to move forward and do what they feel the proper plan is for that company. Gracious Professionalism, though a good creed to live by, is not always the way of the business world today. There are times where in order to survive as a business, you have to do things which will seem unfair to various companies. It is a fact of life. Whether we agree or disagree with FIRST's decisions as of this point, the fact of the matter is they are trying to do what they feel is best for FIRST as a company. It might be the right move, it might be the wrong move, but GP does not factor into that score.

Andy, I agree with your statement.

However, I think his point was that IFI (or any partner, vendor, etc) should not learn of a business decision on FIRST's part through an internet forum like Chiefdelphi, and I agree. That's not good business practice.

[Steve W]

To teach and inspire we must set the example. FIRST needs to follow it's own words and set the example. GP is a phrase coined by FIRST and is part of the foundation FIRST is built upon. If you pull GP from the foundation FIRST will become very unstable. I would hope that FIRST is better than not following their own words.

[Pavan Dave]

Originally Posted by Steve W

To teach and inspire we must set the example. FIRST needs to follow it's own words and set the example. GP is a phrase coined by FIRST and is part of the foundation FIRST is built upon. If you pull GP from the foundation FIRST will become very unstable. I would hope that FIRST is better than not following their own words.

Maybe FIRST believes that either some rules are meant to be broken OR only individuals can practice gracious professionalism because organizations and professional settings make it impossible? Either way I'm going to be disappointed when Woodie gives his GP speech at kickoff because I'll be thinking of my friends in Greenville, Texas.

EDIT: I am not judging Woodie. I am judging the words being preached by FIRST during the kickoff. Woodie's not the only one that talks about GP, but he is the one that introduces the concept and the one everyone thinks of when you hear GP.

[ALittleBirdy]

Originally Posted by Pavan

Maybe FIRST believes that either some rules are meant to be broken OR only individuals can practice gracious professionalism because organizations and professional settings make it impossible? Either way I'm going to be disappointed when Woodie gives his GP speech at kickoff because I'll be thinking of my friends in Greenville, Texas.

This is exactly the sentiment that cuts a little too deep for me. I can't believe that Woodie is a hypocrite. Therefore, I must believe that there is something more to the situation.

Please don't assume the worst about the good folks at FIRST.

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by ALittleBirdy

This is exactly the sentiment that cuts a little too deep for me. I can't believe that Woodie is a hypocrite. Therefore, I must believe that there is something more to the situation.

Please don't assume the worst about the good folks at FIRST.

There is nothing wrong with Woodie Flowers. He is a great guy. We have no idea if he was involved in making this decision or running any of the related communication. There is no point attacking any one person because we do not know who runs what at FIRST. All some of us above are stating is that we do not agree with the way FIRST went about this situation. I hope it brings about some positive changes even though we don't know the full story.

[Travis Schuh]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

This whole entire scenario is what confuses me. They are looking for alternatives but as far as I can tell none exisistt to the level of Vex. They are going to reinvent the wheel and quite frankly that is dumb.

FTC does not have to use another robot platform like the VEX platform. First could be shifting the FTC program to something more like FRC that does not have a off the shelf commercial kit.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Travis Schuh

FTC does not have to use another robot platform like the VEX platform. First could be shifting the FTC program to something more like FRC that does not have a off the shelf commercial kit.

And that is what I am worried about.

Part of the large potential of the FVC program is that anyone can form a team, literally in their basement or garage or even an English classroom. The only tools needed besides those provided are a hacksaw, a file, maybe pliers, and a computer. Virtually anyone can build a FVC competition robot, anywhere, with barely any of the resources needed to build a non-kit robot like FRC.

Take away the off-the-shelf kit aspect of the FVC, and you lose a very large portion of its potential, and you will most likely see negative growth in the program.

As a "mini FRC" type competition, you'd basically be emulating and competing against BEST, which took over a decade to grow to 600+ teams. FVC grew to roughly this same size in only two seasons. It doesn't take a mathematician to see the growth trends of the two, and to ascertain which competition model has lead to more growth (and hence inspiration of students).

Now I am in no way trying to bash or discredit BEST, as any competition or foundation which aspires to inspire students is a worthwhile venture. But if you were to start your own competition from scratch, and had to choose a competition model that has the higher chance of growth, which would you choose? FVC or BEST?

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Pavan
Maybe FIRST believes that either some rules are meant to be broken OR only individuals can practice gracious professionalism because organizations and professional settings make it impossible? Either way I'm going to be disappointed when Woodie gives his GP speech at kickoff because I'll be thinking of my friends in Greenville, Texas.

Originally Posted by ALittleBirdy

This is exactly the sentiment that cuts a little too deep for me. I can't believe that Woodie is a hypocrite. Therefore, I must believe that there is something more to the situation. Please don't assume the worst about the good folks at FIRST.

GP is an ideal to live by, but not a tool to judge with as Mike pointed out so well. It's also not a very accurate or a just thing to equate Dr. Woodie Flowers, professor and FIRST national advisor, with FIRST the non-profit organization. Woodie is a volunteer for FIRST just like many of us are. I look forward to his wise words every year and I frequently seek out his words through MIT websites and video interviews from other sources, too. There's no doubt that, if given the opportunity again by FIRST in 2008, he'll once again inspire thousands of listeners with his view of the world, GP, and whatever else he might be so kind to share with us all. Woodie is his own man who's goals for our culture are in line with FIRST's.

That doesn't mean he speaks for FIRST on ALL topics and it's a poor assumption to think he has anything at all to do with the recent announcements regarding IFI. Whatever assumptions you might hold about FIRST (and/or IFI for that matter) in this situation, by no means should you allow that to dampen the opportunity to hear from perhaps the most wonderful combination of vision, thinking, and social conscience our culture has ever seen.

Namaste.

[Arefin Bari]

I have read this thread quite a few times. IFI responded back, now let's wait to hear a response back from FIRST. Let's not jump on a bandwagon to bash FIRST or anyone else for that matter. Let's not speak without knowing the "facts." If you say something please have valid reasonings behind it. =)

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

I have read this thread quite a few times. IFI responded back, now let's wait to hear a response back from FIRST. Let's not jump on a bandwagon to bash FIRST or anyone else for that matter. Let's not speak without knowing the "facts." If you say something please have valid reasonings behind it. =)

If FIRST issues a statement, I would be very surprised. This isn't a problem like the Banebots failing, or the radios not responding. As of now, there aren't millions of dollars on the line, and there aren't tens of thousands of people involved. Most likely a large portion of teams and team members don't even know about the prospective platform change (Honestly, how many of the people on your team actually get informed of the email blasts or check usfirst.org regularly?).

In all likelyhood, the only people who care are some of the "hardcore" FIRSTers, and IFI. I'd be willing to bet FIRST HQ has seen this thread (or at least IFI's press release), but I don't believe we don't constitute a large enough audience to make a statement worth it. If IFI isn't worth informing, why are we worth informing?

[AdamHeard]

If FIRST changes platforms, they will likely only change to a superior platform. It would make no sense to change to a platform that is inferior.

In that case, there is really no reason to complain NOW. We have no details, and this change is literally years away. How about we wait until we absolutely know what will happen, and absolutely know the capabilities of the replacement before we complain (Same goes for the 2009 control system for FRC).