Teach me?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by SamSofa330

I know you already stated that you are using MPLab, but is there any reason that for your first year you can't use EasyC? As much as people say it limits you and whatever else, I think it would be very useful to at least play with it during the off-season... Just another idea

Sam is right.

For FIRST, easyC doesn't limit at all. It makes the simple, mundane code much easier and quicker to do; but it still allows custom code to be written in plain C. It's really a huge time saver.

I know a lot of programmers avoid EasyC because it's easier and they don't want their ego's hurt, but c'mon, it's a win/win situation. The code is done quicker, with less chance of syntax errors. And if you don't believe complex things can be done with it, look at team 40; they program entirely in easyC.

Also, for the programmers that defiantly stick to MPlab or other IDEs; I work at Northrop Grumman in the satelite area. Most of the programming is done in a program similar to EasyC, not an IDE like Mplab.

[aaeamdar]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I know a lot of programmers avoid EasyC because it's easier and they don't want their ego's hurt, but c'mon, it's a win/win situation. The code is done quicker, with less chance of syntax errors. And if you don't believe complex things can be done with it, look at team 40; they program entirely in easyC.

Adam,

While EasyC may not limit you at all for FRC (I've never tried it, only done it the normal way), it seems to me that if one relied on it consistently, this might hamper development of actual programming skills. While this may not be of any concern if you just want to program something and get it done and over with, if you are seeking to develop these skills, it might be better to build from floor 0.

-Paul

[ebarker]

Easy C is useful to do 2 things. a) teach basic control flow and algorithmic processes. b) get a non-programmer started and through an FRC season.

If any of the following conditions are true, then you should be migrating to MPLab tools as soon as you can.

1) If you are going to major in engineering, computer science, or science.
2) If you need to do professional grade embedded programming.

One book that I like for teaching 'C' is the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Sams-Teach-You.../dp/0672324482

Note that it is NOT the 'C++' book but IS THE 'C' book of a very similar name.

Then you can download this from Microsoft:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/express/aa700735.aspx

It is the Visual C++ Express. For this educational experience you will NOT do c++ but c programs inside of Visual Express.

After installing Visual Express you should register it. It is free and easy.

Then go File->New->Project->WIN32 Console Application
Call your project 'demo' or whatever you like.

then do a Control-F5 and compile and run it.

Now you are ready to do a 'hello world' application, which starts on about page 29 of the book.

At some point you will need to master everything in the book in your college career.

But, there are several things that will not be done in an FRC controller, like calloc(), malloc(), disk I/O, probably not sorting/searching, linked lists.

Do your 21 days and then it will be time for the next step.

[Salik Syed]

If you want to learn programming ... I think you may want to actually learn on something other than the robot.

The robot introduces alot of extra stuff that doesn't really help in getting people to think like programmers.

I suggest using either Python or Ruby. These will make it easier to write simple command line programs and start thinking logically. They are very easy syntactically, there is no compiler or useless overhead stuff needed either.
Just download the interpreters at :
http://www.python.org
or
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/

I'd also suggest getting a book on it.

Once you can do simple (or complicated programs) move over to C. As far as programs ... just make stuff you want... try making a simple board game or something.


-Salik

[EricVanWyk]

Note : I have never used EasyC.

It seems like this is beginning to trend toward a "What is the One True Programming Language" thread. I am a firm believer that languages are tools, and the "OTPL" model leads to a very lonely tool-box.

Go ahead and learn EasyC. Get good and comfortable. Then learn Python. Then C. At this point, you will be able to pick up any imperative language in less than 2 weeks.

You won't be an expert in any of them, but that is just fine. I've never gotten a job that uses a language I already knew. Each time I took an internship, I needed to learn a new tool ( or 3 ).

So Ed, let me disagree with you. The CS/CE people should get familiar with EasyC, as it is a specific tool designed for a specific task, and it will help them learn harder tools quicker.

For quick reference, here are my favorite tools.
Python : Quick and simple, one person programming tool. LEARN THIS.
MATLAB : Darn good for matrix math.
C : Wish I didn't have to use this, but you really don't get a choice some times.
Verilog : Really slow to write, but wow FPGAs are cool.
LabVIEW: Just started on this one, but it is surprisingly intuitive.

[ebarker]

I doubt we are really disagreeing. As I said, EasyC is good for teaching concepts and getting through a season.

And then a CS/CE would move onto other tools as their skill set progresses, like you said.

And yes it is true, the tools you use depends on what kinda nail you have to drive. For me today it is a full time job writing C for ARM9 processors and linux kernals.

A few years a go it was FORTRAN and the Oracle. so yeah.

Cheers,

[JABianchi]

I think the future of FIRST programming is using ROBOTC - carnegie-mellon's new software, which is compatible with the LEGOS NXT, VEX, and very-soon the FRC controller.

Aside from:

+real-time debugging (robotc can make the robot perform the highlighted line of code as you step-through your program) and

+real-time monitoring (a window automatically shows all variables current value in the program),

I was impressed with the simple little things that make programming much easier:

+A big X next to the line where the compiler is having problems (along with a very detailed explanation). No more scouring for semicolons...

+And as you're typing, the program suggests words in a drop-down box, just like you're using gmail...

You can download a 30-day trial at www.robotc.net, and seats are $100 less than EasyC. (ROBOTC may be included with the 2008 KOP.)

Either way, we'll be using ROBOTC to learn programming on our VEX kits, and look forward to our team using ROBOTC for the FRC comptetion in the coming season.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Roger

Can you guys point me in the right direction to do VEX with MPLAB? Is it the same MPLAB as the FRC robots but with VEX-specific code? I actually had some project ideas for the VEX and, yes, I could be using EasyC but... Well, we'll leave that debate alone.

It's the same IDE. I think when you program an FRC robot you have to link to a different library etc.

This tutorial I wrote might be helpful:

http://www.2008.huntingtonrobotics.o...ng_started.php


-Nathan