On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional

[gblake]

Originally Posted by ebarker

Interesting thread.

I would like to hear three GOOD reasons why MS would even think about entering the robotic controller market for FIRST. They would need a good business case and I don't think it is there. FIRST is just too tiny a market and doesn't have money flowing TOWARD Microsoft, relative to their cost stucture.

1) FIRST has cachet. FIRST + MSRS is a bounty of good marketing material waiting to be harvested inexpensively.

2) Microsoft isn't going after the market you appear to have in mind. They are going after the ubiquitous-computing, home-full-of-robots market (see the unusual Bill Gates article Scientific American chose to publish a few months back). That market doesn't exist yet, but I would tend to believe that the future innovators in the FIRST and other pipelines today, are good ones to target if you want to influence the form that future, very-large, robotics market takes when/if it does begin to bear fruit.

3) Microsoft has deep pockets and sees MSRS as a long-term investment in the shape of the future (see point number 2), not one that will contribute much if anything to the next few quarters' financial statements. Viewed in that way, inserting MSRS into programs like FIRST that train the future roboticists would be a smart investment that will pay off in the expected time frame.

About my third item above. The investment would be a smart one for Microsoft to make; but, there are two sides to that hypothetical transaction. I'm pretty sure that for any "agnostic" science and technology program like FIRST, becoming too entangled with any single technology, company or product isn't a wise thing to do. I hope I clearly explained those opinions in earlier posts.

So that we can focus where I think we should focus, I hope that, based on the discussion so far, we are willing to agree that

• Having an FRC regional named the Microsoft Seattle Regional is harmless in itself.
• Having a new FRC regional bear the Microsoft name, makes good conspiracy fodder when added to the recent introduction of MSRS, and to the recent mysterious FIRST announcement about FTC probably not using Vex products next year.

Blake

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by 1885.Blake

Ryan,

Answer me this. Do you think that Microsoft the corporation wants anything less than for the MSRS product and its offspring to be a product used by every robot, every robot manufacturer, and every roboticist in the entire world?

They are a business, so I'm sure they would be quite tickled with a large majority of people using their products.

It is their duty to attempt to dominate any market they attempt to enter. Asserting that Pavan's comment is motivated by "Microsoft hate" might be something of an insult. You should tread lightly there. An alternative interpretation of Pavan's statement is that Pavan does understand how businesses make profits, and that he thinks that Microsoft's entry into the robotics market is one of their significant business thrusts, not just a boutique, research endeavor.

It's not an insult, it's just a fact. There are a great number of Linux, Apple, etc. users on this forum. Some people on ChiefDelphi despise Microsoft and are vocal about it, there's no hiding or denying that. Whether Pavan does or doesn't is not for me to judge. His thought about it being a significant business venture by Microsoft is just that, his own thought. I think that FIRST would be a great wide spread testing ground for something like this, as there are over a thousand teams.

If it is one of their important business thrusts, then I suggest that any organization that has robotics at the core of its existence would be foolish not to view how their own organization might be affected by the entry of an enormously large, influential and wealthy corporation like Microsoft, into that market.

I wasn't really concerned with the rumor of a Microsoft product being used, but rather their sponsorship of the regional event. Microsoft has put forward a lot of money to get their name in the title of the regional. This is huge in my opinion. But what if one of their representatives came here to Chief Delphi and saw Pavan's comment? It's somewhat rude and risky to be posting things like that out in the open about very large sponsors. Out of respect for the company, as with all companies that sponsor FIRST, I would not go out of my way to publicly question the money they've invested in this program.

You said you are "sick of the Microsoft hate here". If there is unfounded "hate", or even mild dislike, here, then I applaud your being sick of it. However, you didn't say that anyone in the discussion has made a false assertion or drawn a false conclusion from an assertion. Please point out where you see the holes in the thread's arguments, along with expressing your feelings, so that we can see if we agree or disagree with you.

I think talking about Microsoft taking over FIRST is the hole in the argument. They're sponsoring one regional and people assume they're going to dominate the entire organization instead of applauding their sponsorship. I'd even go so far as to say "thank you Microsoft for supporting FIRST."

PS: In reply to your question about "people crying out about IFI"; in this very thread the current FIRST FRC/FTC monopoly held by Intellitek/IFI was pointed out as an example of something to try to avoid. I did it in my PS here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...56&postcount=9

I think it's hard to lump VEX into this equation. VEX is a kit that you buy. That's it. There aren't nearly as many options as with FRC (i.e. AndyMark and other suppliers). Sure, IFI had a monopoly on the controllers. But it would be a nightmare if people had options between multiple systems, all with their own headaches and breakdowns. It's simply not a viable option, all teams are going to have to be given the same 'kit of parts' to be on a level playing field.

My hands are cramping, but I hope I've made somewhat of a valid argument. In summary: I don't want Microsoft to come strolling into this thread and be offended by the very people they're supporting.

[Tim Delles]

People take this thing way to far.

Just because Microsoft is joining FIRST doesn't mean in any way that they want to take it over. Honestly if you think that they would / could then every major corporation that is driven by profit, that had/has anything to do with FIRST would want to take it over.

And Honestly, we are the customers. If Microsoft does try anything, we are the ones that can react and do soemthing about that. But until then, put the claws away and see how things go.

[Steve W]

I for one, do not like Microsoft. From day one they have copied others to build and inferior product. They continually put bad products on the market and expect the purchasers to trouble shoot and then charge them for the improvements. Microsoft's software is more prone to crashes than any other software that I know of. I really don't want controllers driving 140+ lb robots with software that is known to be problematic.

That said, if Microsoft is only sponsoring regionals and teams and does not have any major products involved that all teams must use, then I think that is a good thing. Money is hard to come by and unless it is against FIRST'S ideal then I have no issue with it.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

In summary: I don't want Microsoft to come strolling into this thread and be offended by the very people they're supporting.

Microsoft has pretty thick skin. It is a given that they take a certain level of abuse as do all businesses.

And they are also smart enough to navigate through the swamp and see the people that appreciate their contribution. So I'll say it. Thank you Microsoft for sponsoring FIRST.

[Madison]

I never thought I'd see the day when people would be anything but excited by growth of the program.

Microsoft's support allows us to have a regional event in Seattle for the first time since 2003 and will give us the leverage we need to grow FIRST programs throughout the region. Prior to 2008, FIRST teams in Seattle had to travel about 200 miles to compete in Portland, OR and that the next closest regional event was in Davis, CA -- 750 miles away. Considering other regions of the United States with similar regional event distribution and how FIRST growth has stagnated there -- Iowa, the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana -- you might understand that it's been difficult to encourage the creation of new teams in the region in a way that demonstrates the efficacy and success of the program.

With two events in the region, we now have the same opportunities to compete and find "success" -- in the form of trophies and banners as immediately identifiable symbols within our culture -- as many other FIRST teams and we're excited for the potential new interest and support that will bring. Further, it's simply cheaper for teams to participate when they do not have to travel and house dozens of people for the opportunity to compete.

In all of this, remember that Microsoft's support of FIRST is not new. My team has proudly listed Microsoft as a sponsor since 2000 and the company has provided software to hundreds of other teams in the Kit of Parts. Sponsoring a regional event -- and earning the naming rights to an event does not come cheap -- is a logical evolution of their involvement and a demonstration of their continued support for the program.

I don't work for Microsoft, but I'm obviously invested in their involvement in FIRST since the existence of my team depends on the support of the company's employees and its support of the program. We're all excited for 2008 and hope that at least some of y'all can get over your intense dislike for the man and make the trip up to see us here in Seattle.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

My hands are cramping, but I hope I've made somewhat of a valid argument. In summary: I don't want Microsoft to come strolling into this thread and be offended by the very people they're supporting.

If Microsoft sees legitimate and coherent points made in this or other threads they will understand why some folks dislike some of their business practices or some of their nearly unavoidable products. They will be delighted to gain that understanding so that they can overcome the objections.

Thanks for helping everyone involved remember that having the authority to announce their opinions publicly in these discussions, comes with an implicit responsibility to also be able to explain them....

If Microsoft is surprised by anything they read on Chief Delphi, I'll be dumbfounded.

If Microsoft is making their investments because they think every FIRST participant already loves the company and its products, I'll be dumbfounded.

I'll bet that they see their investment as one that pays off in at least four ways.
1) It invests in name recognition and product exposure in a large slice of a what will be a valuable, scarce resource, not too long from now (i.e. the students)
2) It dovetails with their vision of the future and their desire/mandate to make money in that future.
3) It is the right thing for a good corporate citizen to do because of altruism and because a rising science, technology, and economic tide floats all boats.
4) It is a good thing to do that will be seen outside the FIRST community.

Success in none of these will depend crucially on what is written here, so long as the debates involve enough scholarship and coherent logic. If their continued sponsorship does hinge on Chief Delphi subscribers not complaining when complaints are merited, I'll be dumbfounded (and rather disappointed); and those folks with a low opinion of the corporation's practices will be somewhat vindicated.

The truth sets you free. Seek it through energetic debate in an open society that cherishes the transparency of its economic and political processes.

Blake

[Joe Matt]

"Oh this is good... this is gooo-ooo-oood!" - The Deadly Duplicator

Microsoft creates products and solutions. MS won't adapt to FIRST, FIRST will adapt to a MS solution. I don't see FIRST doing that, not because MS is evil or bad or is headed by a guy who runs around a stage shouting "developers!", it's the fact FIRST wants the control that they can't get with InnovationFIRST now.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by 1885.Blake

Success in none of these will depend crucially on what is written here, so long as the debates involve enough scholarship and coherent logic. If their continued sponsorship does hinge on Chief Delphi subscribers not complaining when complaints are merited, I'll be dumbfounded (and rather disappointed)

That's not the point. Today people bad mouth Microsoft, tomorrow GM, tomorrow <insert sponsor here>. While their support may not have anything to do what is said on this forum, I would hope that the FIRST community would have enough common sense to show some respect. I do think this falls under the ideals gracious professionalism. You don't bite the hand that feeds you, it's common sense.

If anything, we should be getting Microsoft representatives out to every regional (maybe there will be?) to see just how FIRST inspires its students. Regardless of how you may feel about their business practices, the sheer size of Microsoft alone should give a hint as to how much FIRST stands to gain from partnering more with them. This has the potential to fund more regionals, start more teams, and inspire students in places around the world. What could be better than that?

Also, I'd like to add that I acknowledge that Microsoft has been a sponsor of FIRST and of teams for a while now; I think they're just upping the ante on a much larger scale. They must have liked what they've seen.

[dtengineering]

I would like to simply thank Microsoft for their support of FIRST. The new regional in Seattle brings FIRST three hours closer to Vancouver, and makes it easier for our team to get local sponsors and community leaders down to see the competition.

As for their alleged plans of global "domination" of robotics, consider that for all the rants (some valid, some less so) against Microsoft, by providing the world with a de-facto standard operating system and office suite it has made it possible to write programs and documents that can be executed/read on basically any computer on the planet. Many CD posters were perhaps not around for the pre-Microsoft era, where software had to be written for Commodores, Apples, Tandys, Ataris, and dozens of other smaller marques, none of which could share media, let alone software or document formats with the others. The computing world was not better off without Microsoft. Right now the robotics world is not so different from the PC world of 30 years ago. Perhaps some standardization might not be a bad thing, and if it is done by a company that has created tens of thousands of good jobs in the Pacific Northwest and around the world that is guided by a person who will eventually be recalled as the most generous philanthropist in history... well... it could be worse, couldn't it?

Thanks again to Microsoft, General Motors, and all the corporations without which FIRST (and many other constructive endeavours) simply would not happen.

See you in Seattle.

Jason

Edit: Just saw the Seattle date... dang... it clashes with the two Canadian regionals... it is the same weekend as Waterloo and just one weekend before Toronto (shipping and time off school may be an issue)... maybe we'll see you in Portland again instead. Which isn't a bad thing at all, really. It might even be fun to go to Seattle to volunteer or just watch a regional for a change.

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Perhaps some standardization might not be a bad thing, and if it is done by a company that has created tens of thousands of good jobs in the Pacific Northwest and around the world that is guided by a person who will eventually be recalled as the most generous philanthropist in history... well... it could be worse, couldn't it?

Except for the little fact, you know, they broke the law. Ooops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft

But hey, what's such a little thing such as an illegal monopoly in the face of history?

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Joe Matt

Except for the little fact, you know, they broke the law. Ooops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft

But hey, what's such a little thing such as an illegal monopoly in the face of history?

Time travel doesn't exist but I wish people could go back in time and experience the anarchy and the phenomenal costs that existed in computing and communications during that era.

The fact that anyone could set a standard and make it stick has had enormous economic benefits for the world in terms of increasing efficiency and driving down costs. You could occupy a programmer for days just to move a file from one computer to another with thousands of dollars worth of hardware. Now you can just email it.

A lot of people were glad to see the standards.

I most certainly do not want to retry the case here but it was probably inevitable that Microsoft would wind up in this position given the momentum they had and the willingness of the marketplace to reward their efforts.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by ebarker

lot of people were glad to see the standards.

Careful there - A product is not a standard.

Originally Posted by dtengineering

...by providing the world with a de facto standard operating system and office suite it has made it possible to write programs and documents that can be executed/read on basically any computer on the planet....

You say this as though there isn't a better way to have accomplished the same goal. If asked, I think I can name at least two ways to have reached the same goal, and one way to move forward from where we are today. None of them would have been as profitable for Microsoft, but I assert that they would serve computer users better than the current state of affairs.

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Perhaps some standardization might not be a bad thing, and if it is done by a company that has created tens of thousands of good jobs in the Pacific Northwest... it could be worse, couldn't it?

This is a very, red herring. The question is not whether a currently not-excellent situation could have been made worse; but whether it could have been, or could be, made better. In alternative scenarios there might be even more economic stimulation of the Pacific Northwest and other regions of the globe; or there might not.

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

I would hope that the FIRST community would have enough common sense to show some respect....

You did not read all of the statements that have been made carefully enough.

It would seem to me that everyone in this discussion respects large corporations' clout immensely; and that they attempt to praise or dislike other things corporations do, according to the merits of those other things. In short they appear to give respect when and where it is earned. I agree that doing differently would be very disrespectful.

This discussion began when someone speculated that sponsoring a FIRST regional might be part of Microsoft's general foray into the robotics software market. I have attempted to explain why that person's comment is a perfectly reasonable guess to make.

The discussion has slid sideways into whether being annoyed at some of Microsoft's business practices is the same as disliking their unencumbered support of a FIRST regional. I'm pretty sure that the two are not the same.

I do profusely and fervently thank Microsoft Corporation for all donations that are aimed at inspiring students.

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

If anything, we should be getting Microsoft representatives out to every regional (maybe there will be?) to see just how FIRST inspires its students.

No one said we shouldn't. Make it happen.

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

Regardless of how you may feel about their business practices, the sheer size of Microsoft alone should give a hint as to how much FIRST stands to gain from partnering more with them.

Or lose... Big and/or wealthy does not equate to good-partner or to bad-partner. Good donor perhaps; but not necessarily good (or bad) partner.

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

This has the potential to fund more regionals, start more teams, and inspire students in places around the world. What could be better than that?

Under the perfectly reasonable assumption that corporation XYZ's donations come without strings attached beyond generating good will and name recognition, that will be a good thing. However, to answer your question, simple cash donations that don't have any strings whatsoever attached to them are even better.

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I never thought I'd see the day when people would be anything but excited by growth of the program.

I don't think that you have seen that day yet. I do think you have seen a discussion started by a speculation that Microsoft's increased support of FIRST might be connected to their recent foray into the robotics software development market. So far I have not seen anyone ask Pavan or any other poster if they are delighted or not by Microsoft's support making it possible to add another regional in the Pacific Northwest....

My answer is above.

Blake

[Pavan Dave]

...Pause discussion.

For a bit of clarification, I wanted to start a discussion to see the opinions of the FIRST community about Microsoft's leap of sponsorship in FIRST from teams to regional status. Also with the fact that a new system is coming out for the 2009 season, it led me to think that Microsoft is somehow involved. I am not saying either of these is a "bad" thing, but what I am asking is if Microsoft's intentions are to just help out FIRST, or help themselves by [eventually] lawyering their partnership with FIRST to make it mandatory for teams to use their software with teams' robots.

I don't really care for Microsoft to be completely honest. I am concerned about Robotics Education being harmed by a potential parasite getting into the system via. sponsorship.

Pavan.

Continue the discussion...

[jacob07]

Nice job starting a war Pavan :-} As M. Krass said who would think that the day would come that some of the FIRST community would attack a organization trying to help FIRST. Who says that they are in it for financial gain. Maybe they are trying to help just like GM, FORD, Delphi, NASA, and all the other sponsors are helping. Trying to spread the word of FIRST to high school student, to get them interested in Science, Math, and Technology. True some of Microsoft's products haven't been the best, but isn't that true for most company's? They may have had made some mistakes in the past but, guess what people, that is in the past. They are trying to move forward and better themselves. What a way to do it, to HELP FIRST. They are making it possible for teams in the North West of the United States to have a close regional they can compete in without spending lots of money to travel and compete. We need to put our differences about Microsoft as an a bad thing, maybe they are but maybe they are not, and look at it as they are trying to help high school students. Not everything in this world is about money.

Jacob