How important is Linux?

[Astronouth7303]

Ignoring the whole "which RTOS?" discussion, here's my $.02.

The current generation of controllers just don't have a prayer of running an RTOS. Period. No easy multi-threading, inefficient indirect referencing, and a collection of other architecture issues make it pretty much impossible.

One of the issues of using any RTOS is the complexity of developing code for a new device. While I have no experience with any RTOS, I know that if you miscode a kernel module (or w/e the term is for the RTOS of your choice), the debugging could be a real hassle.

Even if you don't write code at a kernel level, you can still have issues with threading that just don't appear in current code.

At this time, FIRST robots do not (generally) meet complexity requirements to justify an RTOS.

[Kevin Watson]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

The current generation of controllers just don't have a prayer of running an RTOS. Period. No easy multi-threading, inefficient indirect referencing, and a collection of other architecture issues make it pretty much impossible.

We aren't discussing the current controller.

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

One of the issues of using any RTOS is the complexity of developing code for a new device. While I have no experience with any RTOS, I know that if you miscode a kernel module (or w/e the term is for the RTOS of your choice), the debugging could be a real hassle.

No one is expecting teams to code at the kernel level.

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

Even if you don't write code at a kernel level, you can still have issues with threading that just don't appear in current code.

Who said teams will be forced to write multi-threaded apps, or even know what a thread is?

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

At this time, FIRST robots do not (generally) meet complexity requirements to justify an RTOS.

*sigh* I could write volumes about this one sentence, but I have other things to do...

-Kevin

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Kevin Watson

*sigh* I could write volumes about this one sentence, but I have other thigs to do...

-Kevin

I gotta agree with you Kevin...

I think many teams will expand their programming to fill the capabilities of the new system, whatever they may be.

Also, I think we should all assume (as Kevin stated) that even with a RTOS running, teams have the option of coding in a very simple fashion without having to deal with the OS at all.

[DonRotolo]

Before I start: I'm not well-qualified to comment. But that never stopped me.

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

(other than the "gee whiz" reasons

Originally Posted by Mark Pierce

I suspect that many of the Linux fans might be disappointed to find that using a version of linux suitable for a robot controller will not feel much like the Linux they use on their desktop computers.

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

At this time, FIRST robots do not (generally) meet complexity requirements to justify an RTOS.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I think many teams will expand their programming to fill the capabilities of the new system, whatever they may be.

I apologize for the many quotes, but to me they tell a story.

All of the HS kids I met who demanded Linux for their devel system could not really give a good reason, other than "it's not MS" (Dave's point kinda). Arguments of stability or 'openness' don't fly with me. So, Linux as RTOS in the RC wouldn't make a lot of sense for these folks, as it would look foreign (Mark's point).

The latter points are right on - FIRST robots are not sophisticated partly because the teams program to the current RCs capabilities. Increase capacity and you will see more sophisticated robots. So, the more power the better, IMHO.

On the other hand, if we consider a FIRST robot a learning tool, I would rather see lower-level programming than higher-level. But, considering the range of capabilities out there, Easy C is pretty high level (or can be if you let it). And, it is needed.

Conclusion: An RTOS might be great, it does not have to be Linux, the dev tools are what carry the greatest weight for me.

Don

PS:

Originally Posted by lynca

To get more people involved with programming robots from their personal computer , FIRST must have a robot simulator.

Now THAT would be worthwhile, but that's a topic for a new thread

[Gdeaver]

I started another thread - chicken or the egg - in the control section. Discussing a software programming environment with out knowing some details about the hardware design to me makes no sense. If First would give us a hint at the architecture they are considering, then we could go around and around discussing the advantages and disadvantages of every software platform discussed in this thread. With out some hardware details this thread can not lead to any meaningful discussion. First seams to intend to keep the new control system secret. When it is released we can revisit this thread and comment on they should have used Linux, Rtos would have been perfect, why didn't they use xyz system and on and on. Unless First opens up how can we debate the software. There are allot of smart people on this forum that could make meaningful comments on the platform direction. Don't think it's going to happen. Come on FIRST open up a little.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

I started another thread - chicken or the egg - in the control section. Discussing a software programming environment with out knowing some details about the hardware design to me makes no sense. If First would give us a hint at the architecture they are considering, then we could go around and around discussing the advantages and disadvantages of every software platform discussed in this thread. With out some hardware details this thread can not lead to any meaningful discussion. First seams to intend to keep the new control system secret. When it is released we can revisit this thread and comment on they should have used Linux, Rtos would have been perfect, why didn't they use xyz system and on and on. Unless First opens up how can we debate the software. There are allot of smart people on this forum that could make meaningful comments on the platform direction. Don't think it's going to happen. Come on FIRST open up a little.

I just kind of figured discussions like these would drive the hardware decision.