School Support problem?

[Chaos204]

You guys have always been helpful to me and and i figure you are the best source to go to. I have run into a a pretty big problem. As the captain of the team i want to take my team to champs. Traditionally our team goes to two regionals, and that is it for our season. Two years ago we went to champs instead of a second regional and were lack of a better term walloped on the rankings list, not because of the robots ability but our own lack of experience in the game, and maybe a bit of bad luck! So this year i think it is important that we compete twice before champs.

This is the problem... the team adviser asked the activities coordinator (also the vice principal) to allow us to go on the three trips and apparently without hesitation said no. I don't think he understands that Robotics is not just tinkering around for a few weeks with circuit boards, rather it's about an experience that we deserve to have. I asked the adviser what the vice principals his grounds for denial were and all he could say is that it costs too much (which is our problem not his) and that we cant miss the extra two days of school. I have decided to fight for my team and all the hard work we put into the robot. He is not the final say in my mind. I suppose I will talk to him first but I will go to the Board of Education if necessary.

I am sorry if i should bitter but I can't believe i have to deal with this of all problems i should be fund-raising or designing or something.

I know that many teams go to two regionals then championships, and i did some research there are also a lot in NJ who go to three competitions. Does anybody else have to deal with this sort of problem? Or any suggestions?

Thanks guys

-Jordan

[Cynette]

Jordan:

Make one clarification for me please. As of today are you planning on going to two regionals, or one regional and the championship? Are they ok with you missing school for two regionals? For many school districts, Championships fall during spring breaks and does not take extra days off. Is that by any chance the case for your school?

[Chaos204]

To be honest I am still planning to go to two regionals and the Championships. I do have high hopes in this regard. But if all else fails i think it would be best for team morale for us to go to the second regional.

They are OK at this point allowing us to go to one day trip competition (we go home every night) and one away trip. a total of 4 days excused. we are asking for the extra 2.

I wish we were so lucky for championships to be during spring break actually our spring break ended up during Drexel. The teachers did not want to compete during spring break :/ Thats why we are going to Trenton instead for our day trip competition.

[thefro526]

that sounds like our school. Depending on where in NJ you are you could do philly, nj, and the champs philly lands on my schools spring break so if you were same way it wouldn't be about missing school

[Chaos204]

i tried to do just that, but the teachers wouldn't take off of their spring break

[vivek16]

Do you have any parent or corporate mentors that are willing to go?

we are very lucky because our administration is just absolutely amazing at listening to us and help with almost everything.

-vivek

p.s. I absolutely agree with you. How big is your team? if you have enough members maybe you could take half of the team and one mentor to one regional. and the other half of the team and another mentor to the other regional. and take parent chaperones with you to help out.

[Cooley744]

Try to explain more about FIRST to your principal. Also explain how the trips are, and that you basicly build to compete. Also, find out what he likes/what he would say yes to. Then, form your presentation in a way that he will see why it would be beneficial to him to support you cause. I hope that is understandable. Basicly, make him an offer he can't say no to. Oh, AND, don't be afraid to go to the school board or who ever else that is over him. If it's something you truely care about (which I'm sure robotics is), then stand up for it.

[JohnBoucher]

What ever you do, stay positive with the school and the school board. It is so very easy for situations like this to go negative and cause long term damage.

You need to show that competing is a positive and learning experience. Have you invited the adminstration to any events? It is so hard to explain the positives if they don't see them in person.

Do you have academic standards that the team members have to maintain to travel with the team? If not implement them. This will show them that you are serious and the team has positive standards. Travel is not a given, it has to be earned.

Is fundraising a consideration? It's not just the additional competition fee, it's the cost of shipping the robot beyond what Fedex donates. You are lucky to be in an area that has lots of regionals, so travel costs are low for you.

Perhaps you want to consider New York City as the second regional. That is a Friday to Sunday event. Only missing one day of school.

Lastly, doing multiple regionals will not ensure doing well at Championship.

Good Luck, Stay positive

[Akash Rastogi]

I think that this is actually one of the best possible opportunities your team could have to show the Board of Ed. what your team and FIRST is all about. Show them the true meaning of FIRST competition and that it is definitely not a trip for leisure. It may not come down to actually arguing but you'll have a put up a fight in a sense that you'll have to show your dedication and the value of the program in the school. Also, try to demonstrate how your team will raise the money to go so that the school board has reassurance that they do not need to step in and fix financial problems that you may encounter. Hope this helps.

-Akash

[Conor Ryan]

My first tip, do not go above your Vice Principal's head yet. Remember, in order to compete in first you must be a student, so if you are not in class enough to convince some people that you are students you are going to have to work around that fact. Talk to your advisor, maybe you can start by making sure that everyone on the team is a good student, maybe setting a minimum GPA in order to travel with the team is a good idea. Maybe you could also throw in a few other ideas like minimum unexcused absents from school too, if your school has 15 days, maybe limit team members who want to travel to 10. Basically anything on paper to prove to your Vice Principal that you guys are willing to do anything to go to 3 competitions, will help.

Once you work things out with your advisor, set up another meeting with your Vice Principal, show him why students on 204 are more dedicated than other students in the school, show him that you are willing to go above and beyond the expectations that the average student is supposed to meet. Keep trying, if the first few attempts don't work with the Vice Principal, talk to the Principal, ask for more clarification, take your time before you go to the Board of Education, because what the BOE says, is most likely the final decision. Maybe asking your Vice Principal to be a chaperone might work too.

[MishraArtificer]

If the VP won't agree after all of these sugestions, THEN go to the School Board. And bring the robot: demos are ALWAYS better than photos, charts, etc. Only if all else fails, then...
Actually, what could be done after that?

[JaneYoung]

This will probably not be a popular suggestion. I'm basing it on some productive administrative discussions we've had regarding topics that could have affected the team negatively -both short term and long term - but didn't because of our approach.
It is wise not to back anyone into a corner trying to force a decision. If you are pursuing something with your school powers that be - always use diplomacy and understand what they are saying to you. Sometimes we listen but don't hear, make sure that is not happening. What you want to do is not necessarily something they will see as more important than the classes the students will miss and have to try to make up. You have to be prepared both in presenting your request and in understanding their concerns.

Our students will struggle this year to make up their classes they miss due to block scheduling. In the magnet program they are in, absences have to be looked at very carefully when making these decisions.

Good luck with pursuing your requests.

[AndyB]

A trip to the school boards sounds like a great decision. I would recommend, however, finding a source of cash for the third competition if that is what you decide you want to do.

Go to the school board and lay out an outline that covers what you think are their complaints.

From what you listed, it seems that the two objections are 1) Too much cost and 2) You'll miss another 2 days of school.

1) Cost
_a) Show them how you can get the funds. Make sure you provide methods that will work out. Don't say you can get the money if you can't.
_b) Talk about FIRST's expenses to build a robot, both on a time scale and financial scale. Argue that spending 6 weeks brainstorming, conceptualizing, designing, prototyping, and building a robot should have more payoff (not going to a third when you have the opportunity, is a waste of the hard work you guys put in)

2) Missing School
_a) Recognize why they are concerned. Make sure you point out that a good education is necessary, but that there are other ways of obtaining education other than sitting in a classroom

_b) Try using the statistics from FIRST's site on the impact of FIRST from an educational perspective. I know everyone else has mentioned it already but please make sure to STAY POSITIVE AND POLITE. Let your gracious professionalism really shine.

When compared with the comparison group, FIRST students are:

* More than 3 times as likely to major specifically in engineering.
* Roughly 10 times as likely to have had an apprenticeship, internship, or co-op job in their freshman year.
* Significantly more likely to expect to achieve a post graduate degree.
* More than twice as likely to expect to pursue a career in science and technology.
* Nearly 4 times as likely to expect to pursue a career specifically in engineering.
* More than twice as likely to volunteer in their communities.

I hope this helps!

[TimCraig]

Another thing to look into is how they treat the "jock" teams at your school. If you feel they're treated "better", you have leverage. For instance, the football team at the school where I mentor is supposed to be self supporting but they continually go over budget and the school picks up the difference out of the general fun. Didn't help us but it's something to look at.

[Chaos204]

I have been talking to a lot of people, teachers familiar with robotics at my school, parents, past mentors, you guys, everybody has been so supportive. Actually as a side note the kids on the team have really rallied together and want to do what ever they can to help. Its kinda cool. but it does bring me to another issue. I have decided to speak with the VP first and not go over his head yet, but the team wants to come too. I love them for it but I am afraid if we out number him like that he will feel too threatened and become defensive ultimately hurting our cause. I want to know what you guys think.

I do like the unexcused absence reduction a lot. It really shows commitment to learning, that even a GPA requirement doesn't show. Plus being a robotics team GPA is really not an issue (at least with the old guys i don't know about the freshmen)

As far as the cost issue goes we fell into a great fund raising idea completely by accident and i would recommend it to anybody in a bind. We split the team into fund raising teams to come up with ideas but it turned into a competition. So now we have a bunch of groups trying to raise the most money.

I am going to try to be as professional as possible its really not an argument yet. I do not think it will turn into one. I am just going to convince anybody willing to listen to me how important and beneficial FIRST is and how big a part of the experience going to the championship is.

JohnBoucher thanks for the warning on champs i certainly understand that multiple regionals doesn't guarantee doing well but i don't think it would be fair to the teams we would compete with if we weren't at full strength.

-Jordan