The Sad truth

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Protronie

A smart team would go to the city asking for 10K then the county asking for another 10K usually the city gov will match what the county gives.

Please do not assume that all teams have the same political landscape. And please do not assume that just because you have access to things, that all teams have that same access.

Here in the North East, County governments have little to no power or money. Our team, 1824, covers 3 High schools serving 7 small townships (no cities). Politics are, and always will be, local. Just because we can't go to our "city or county government" doesn't mean we aren't being a 'smart team'.

Before you critisize, walk a mile in their shoes.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

It would be great if FIRST had the same funding, publicity, and support as the athletic teams, but I don't think FIRST should usurp their place entirely. Sure, there are lessons in FIRST that are much harder to get, if possible at all, from sports. But sports have value in our society too.

...

To say that any society that funds athletic programs over FIRST needs to reorganize their priorities is a dramatic view.

When the University of Helsinki is the one who come up with a 50% increased success rate for curing brain cancer by using electromagnetic waves even though some US universities spent twice as much money on it, or when it's 3 non-US universities that use nanocarbon tubes and flourescent jelly from Jellyfish in order to study how the preliminary stages of cancer attack T-cells in the body, or when ... well perhaps nothing's wrong, nevermind.

The sad truth is inherent in what you're saying: sports, entertainment, and recycling money to make more money still reign supreme over science and technology. The point is that FIRST needs to make sure they do more to encourage teams to have an extended business plan rather than "start xyz teams by next year". If it takes convincing a school that they need to take away a little funding from sports to fund a FRC team then so be it -- maybe that's a small part of the reason for Dean's shift in homework assignments in 2007. Science and Technology NEEDS that support, publicity, and funding. There's nothing dramatic about it.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Protronie

A smart team would go to the city asking for 10K then the county asking for another 10K usually the city gov will match what the county gives.

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Please do not assume that all teams have the same political landscape. And please do not assume that just because you have access to things, that all teams have that same access.

Agreed. Our city is very short of funds. I was at a recent city commission meeting where they voted to use funds to install crosswalk signals near a new middle school, even though the funds would have to come out of general street repairs. They couldn't wait to see if they could get a grant in a few months - kids are crossing at that intersection now. Balancing safety needs like that against wants of a robotics team, guess what wins?

As for the county, there are at least 19 FRC teams in Oakland County. Funding all of them would add up to a nice pile of change.

[basicxman]

Originally Posted by Zyik

Things grow, you can't go back to a small cozy number of teams. However, teams don't have to have a major sponser to do well at an event, nor to be picked by someone who did.

i agree i started an FTC team at the age of 13 (and its our rookie year this year) and we got a sponsor and have had alot of financial issues (suaully to do with shipping costs) but we've pulled through ok, you just have to improvize with the resources you've got, ive changed my design several times now but iv finally found the right one that works and i can build it with the limited number of parts we have

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

As for the county, there are at least 19 FRC teams in Oakland County. Funding all of them would add up to a nice pile of change.

this is true. What would happen if all 19 teams requested the money at the same time? Imagine the scene if the entire meeting venue was crowded with students, teachers, mentors and school administrators requesting funding for a worthwhile cause? Start with a small amount, say $500 - $1000 per team. Show that the teams are making an impact then you can request more in the future. Invite your reps to events, meets or whatever shows your team at their best. If you can build LOCAL support, politicians will listen.

[Steve W]

Our team comes from a unique environment. We are located in a large city. We have the luxury that most teams don't. The Toronto District School Board is really behind FIRST. They pay for the Regional Director as a full time person. They support all of FIRST's programs. They financially support all of their FRC teams to the point of paying for their fees for the Greater Toronto Regional. I say this not to make others feel bad but to point to what I feel is necessary for FIRST to grow. My belief is that we shouldn't be trying to start individual teams but rather convert school boards. There are many times I have spoken to teams from outside of T.O. and hear of the trouble even getting the school boards support. Getting money is out of the question with them.

School administration is political. The teachers and principals want to look good to their bosses. If we can get the boards to promote the cause then the local schools will jump on board. How do we accomplish that you ask? Ahhh, that is a topic for another thread.

[Scott Ritchie]

I would be somewhat careful with wanting to get this sponsorship from you school systems. Once they become a sponsor you will then be under their rules and guidelines from top to bottom. This will affect the way money is spent, who the coaches are, where your meetings are going to be, where you go for regionals and so on. Also the school systems support is going to go back to how good the tax base is which leads back to the better funded will still be the survivors. I think that lack of funding for existing teams is like a normal business problem that needs to be addressed by the team and a plan devised as to how the group as a whole will over come the problem.

Remember this is me talking about myself and not anyone else.

I was one of those people that complained and felt sorry for our group because others had more or better sponsorship than my team. I blamed our record and performance on the lack of funds. It was till I quit crying about the situation and buckled down and used the talents of my group to fix the problem and did things change. There is a reason the well funded teams keep their funding and as unfair as it seems get more. You must research these teams find what they are doing and emulate what will work for you. Don't get caught up in what they are doing well now but what they did in the beginning to get there. I have told many teams this and I can tell they think you don't understand you have sponsorship. Keep in mind that 95% of the time big-time sponsorship doesn’t come with valet parking and room service. Again this is just me but I feel that the more self supported your group is than school supported the more pride your team will have. I think the hardest thing to keep in mind is that you build a robot, write a chairman’s, go to regionals, do community service and FUNDRAISE. It is not optional and it has to be worked on like any of the other areas.

Footnote: I was at a FIRST forum in MI about 4 years or so ago and I was whining about First razing the entry fees. This guy in the front of the room turned around and very abruptly, loudly told me "you have to pay to play. Everything costs money and this cost so much and if you’re in you will pay what it cost. So find the money or don't." Now I will say I was ready to throw down right there (not really he looked much meaner than I perceive myself to be) but I didn't. About two days latter I began to let that sink in and began doing what he said and found a way to pay. Hope this makes since in this thread.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Here in the North East, County governments have little to no power or money.

Especially in Connecticut, where there are no county governments. The only thing counties are used for here are for weather bulletins.

[Libby K]

Long post ahead-- I apologize in advance.

Originally Posted by aztech75

...
More and more today I am seeing once great teams falling out of the FIRST Program because they just can't keep up with the rising cost. In the past seven years that i have praticipated in first I have seen a dramatic change in the way first is run. The sad reality is that first isnt about kids anymore, its about makeing money for teams and trying to get the rest of the world interested in what we do.
...

-Yes, there are many teams dropping out of FIRST. My team may be one of them this year, unfortunately. Part of the rising cost is because FIRST is expanding at a ridiculous rate. The more kits they have to send out, fields they have to fabricate, and venues they have to rent, the more it's going to cost us, the teams. That's unfortunate, but it happens.

-Part of the reason FIRST has had to make dramatic changes in they way it's been run is because of expansion. Back in ye olde days, those "team updates" we look forward to were sent via fax to every team. That wouldn't exactly work with as many teams as there are now.-- hence, change in management styles. They've outgrown the Manchester HS Gym, and they've outgrown Disney. It all takes adjusting. Part of what I think is causing this widespread discontent (my favorite example: update 16) is because many of us don't understand-- every year is completely different from the folks up in Manchester. We're not the only ones with new challenges.

-Now, this may just be my opinion, but I was fortunate enough to be able to work as a camp counselor up at FIRST Place this summer-- As far as I could gather from the people I spoke to, this isn't about the money for them. It's about loving what they're doing, and seeing others inspired. I'm pretty sure that's about the kids.


On to another quote...

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

I believe both of those points are your opinion. I, for one, feel totally different. I don't care if the students know the difference between an op-amp and a resistor.. I just care that they have fun, pump that muscle in their head, and eventually get into college with a ton of scholarship money. These students have their entire college career to learn about engineering. Let's try to let them have some fun while they can.

-Agreed. Very agreed. I've been attending competitions since before I can remember. Back then, I didn't know what half the stuff on the machines was (I still don't... )..and I really didn't care! Why? Because I was having a fantastic time. That's what these things are about, aren't they?

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Another one of the hidden aspects/bonuses of FIRST is learning.
The students learn, the mentors learn, the sponsors learn, the school systems learn. Part of the business plan is to get the word out. What good is the word if no one is listening and starting to understand the scope of FIRST's mission? If there is no learning, there is no chance of recognition and inspiration.

-As a member of a team whose community does not support them one bit, at all, I definitely agree with this. If noone will listen to a team, it's not the team's fault if they aren't able to compete. It's also a kick in the butt to those teams to be a little louder.



My own opinion here- I really don't think it's FIRST's fault if a team doesn't compete. And please, don't take that as me blaming teams. I come from a team that's struggling right now, so if anything, I'm blaming myself here. A team's inability to participate depends on a lot of things. FIRST expanding may up the cost of things, but it certainly is in FIRST's plan to keep teams going after they're started. Even if a team can't keep its' head above water, I'm sure there's a team nearby that would love to take its members and mentors in for a year while they get themselves together. That way, everyone gets their experience.

That's what this whole thing is about. Experience. Not the experience of winning a regional, but the experience of putting your heart and soul into something for six weeks, and celebrating that at the most fun event of the year. Well, at least that's what it's about for me.

[vivek16]

Keep in mind: FIRST has only been around for 15 years or so. Athletics have been around in our school since the 1920s, it probably goes back well into the 1800s for some older schools! If you think of FIRST's success so far it is rather astonishing. I think in another century FIRST will be as popular as athletics.

just my 2 cents, vivek

[Ellery]

Just keep in mind, as FIRST grows, the strategy of how to keep this type of program evolves. The larger it gets, the more complex it is to manage, the higher the costs are to facilitate it. As with inflation rising and the cost of living going up - good luck with waitng for costs to go down. If it is too costly for a team to continue they need to rethink their options and chose a viable one that meets their long term needs.

As long as the basic goal of the program remains the same, "inspiring students to science and technological fields via partnerships".

Politics exist in all facets and finances will always be a factor in discussions like these. Keep the focus on the main goal.

As Alan mentioned earlier - keep it fun, exciting, and challenging so that the volunteer engine keeps chugging away. Remember this whole program is volunteer driven with the students as the focus.

Party on and screw the politics, rumors and all this political correctness. It'll just give you bad gas.

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by Ellery

Party on and screw the politics, rumors and all this political correctness. It'll just give you bad gas.

LOL!!! Yeah, that's pretty much the bottom line.

[Protronie]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Before you critisize, walk a mile in their shoes.

I was NOT critisizing... simply offering one possible way for a team to get some funding ... Elected officials ALWAYS have pet projects and find the money for them... its called "pork" !
If your officials don't have any "pork projects" congrats! Your very lucky.

If the school dist can't fund the team, perhaps the mentors of the team could met with the school dist and see if the school would not cancel the team if the team could find its own funding.

I'm sorry if you felt criticized.

[ebarker]

A couple of posts suggest that the larger FIRST gets the more its costs. that suggests that a team cost structure goes up also.

I disagree. I don't think you looking at costs correctly.

Program costs per team actually goes down as the program grows for several reasons.

Fixed costs -
Some items in the FIRST budget are fixed. It doesn't matter it there are 1 or 10,000 teams. As the number of teams increase the less cost per team as that cost is distributed.

Another aspect of fixed costs is in order to create a regional you need a critical mass of teams to support the regional. You are not going to create a regional that has only 5 teams. The fixed costs are prohibitive. But you have to create regionals to reduce logistical costs and make the program more available. An interesting problem currently is there is a lot of growth around Washington DC/Mid-Atlantic area. The Virginia event is basically overloaded. The NC/RTP area is under served and there is no regional in NC and not enough teams in NC. It is logical that NC create an event so Virginia doesn't explode like a steam boiler. But we need some teams in NC.

Variable costs -
For example if FIRST (or their agent has to buy parts to distribute, the transaction costs goes down with increasing volume. Again the savings are passed on. The whole parts acquisition/distribution process is a very significant cost. To learn more study industrial engineering and "supply chain".

Logistical costs -
The more the programs grow, the more regionals there are. More regionals means less distance a team travels to their event. This cost is mainly for variable costs like fuel. Whereas hotels and meals tend to be fixed cost, whether you travel 1 mile or 10,000 miles.

There are plenty of teams that struggle to fund and attend one regional. The bulk of their costs go to FIRST and building the robot. There are some teams that attend 2 or 3 or possibly more regionals and their cost is mostly travel and lodging/food, etc. The only thing FIRST can do there about that is create a million regionals to eliminate overnight trips.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Protronie

I was NOT critisizing... simply offering one possible way for a team to get some funding ... Elected officials ALWAYS have pet projects and find the money for them... its called "pork" !
If your officials don't have any "pork projects" congrats! Your very lucky.

If the school dist can't fund the team, perhaps the mentors of the team could met with the school dist and see if the school would not cancel the team if the team could find its own funding.

I'm sorry if you felt criticized.

I didn't feel critisized , but when you make statements like "Smart teams do 'x'" then you are implying that teams that dont do 'x' are not smart. Sometimes situations will prevent teams from following your suggestions.

I would also caution you about using definitives like ALWAYS and NEVER, as you do not know all the situations, everywhere.

"Pork" projects (as you call them) are far more typical of large government than of small government, because it's much more easily hid in the budget.

Budgets are not easy. Sometimes tough decisions need to be made between competing worthy projects. Even public money does not grow on trees (it comes from the taxpayer base, which may not know of, or care for, FIRST).

All I'm saying is, never assume that you are entitled to support from the public.