The Sad truth

[GaryVoshol]

As I recall, there was a price increase for the kit, regionals and/or Championships a while back. There has not been an increase this year. If team costs are going up, it's because teams are voluntarily increasing their costs - going to an extra regional or a regional that has higher travel costs, or buying that latest greatest piece of hardware for the robot. Teams aren't going bust because costs are going up.

The problem many teams have is on the support and funding side. Mentors burn out and have to cut back, and there's no one to keep the program going at the same level. Sponsors are lost, maybe they have to cut back or maybe they've even gone bankrupt themselves. The school district can't fund the team in the same way it did before because cuts have to be made across the board - it's a choice between funding robotics or buying textbooks. Teams may have been set up depending on grant money, and now the grant source has either dried up or the team is no longer eligible for a renewal.

The only way teams have to combat this is to work it out for themselves. They can't blame FIRST. The students have to go out and beat the bushes to find more sponsors, new mentors, better parent support, convince other government officials that the program is important to fund. The students must make it apparent that the program is important to them, and show that by their efforts. It won't guarantee success, some teams will still fold, but it is the only way for teams to continue.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Budgets are not easy. Sometimes tough decisions need to be made between competing worthy projects. Even public money does not grow on trees (it comes from the taxpayer base, which may not know of, or care for, FIRST).

All I'm saying is, never assume that you are entitled to support from the public.

nothing is ever entitled to funding. Are road and hospitals entitled to funding? They are not, unless the community makes it a priority. Build your grassroots support and FIRST will become a priority for you local government body and school board as well. If the taxpayers in your community do not know of, or care for, FIRST, it is your job to show them what you do and educate them.

[ducttapedude]

Simply in a 2 cents form of a reply

I'm just so....reassured of the "FIRST community" after reading through this thread, as even as we debate the imperfections of our society and those consequences that fall in our lives and strongly affect this program...there is still humility, there is still the spirit of FIRST, even as during our offseason lives we still strive to keep this program as good as we can get it, that even if the program isn't perfect, that we strive for perfection, and fairness, and that the initial reasons for this program are still here, sure things change, the world changes, such is life, as long as the FIRST community keeps fighting for itself....I do not see FIRST going off the deep end.

Sure, it may not how be how it was in the beginning, my brother and sister have both been in the program for 4 years each, it was a much different program, and heavily funded sponsors do have a large advantage, but in the end, I still see teams that come in last place having a great time, learning priceless amounts of experience, and still being inspired and recognizing science and technology.

hope this wasn't too much of a tangent reply...

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by ducttapedude

...but in the end, I still see teams that come in last place having a great time, learning priceless amounts of experience, and still being inspired and recognizing science and technology.

As a member of a team that did finish dead last in a 62 team competition and not get selected to the eliminations, the best I can say for that year (in terms of fun) is "meh".

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As a member of a team that did finish dead last in a 62 team competition and not get selected to the eliminations, the best I can say for that year (in terms of fun) is "meh".

And yet you still come back... sounds like FIRST is succeeding whether you like it or not.

[DanDon]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As a member of a team that did finish dead last in a 62 team competition and not get selected to the eliminations, the best I can say for that year (in terms of fun) is "meh".

Team 375 has been attending Championships for 3 years now. We have not been drafted in those three years to continue in eliminations. I can honestly say that between the Aim High season and the Rack N' Roll season there was a *huge* difference in the amount of fun that I had and the level of enjoyment of the team in general. When you stop concentrating on the results and start concentrating on the atmosphere and the experience the trip takes on a carefree feel that allows you to have a great time despite your success on the field. Take the time to meet new people from other teams, perhaps even cheer on their alliance during eliminations. Cheer on your division on Einstein. Hang out with other teams after the work day in the pits and on the field. It all works out amazingly at the end.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by jgannon

And yet you still come back... sounds like FIRST is succeeding whether you like it or not.

I don't think I'm an appropriate example for basing that assumption, seeing as I've been exposed to FIRST since I was a child and a participant on a team that typically didn't finish that low. It was beyond just a poor performance, our robot broke in a fashion we couldn't repair at competition, and we sat there immobile for almost the whole weekend while the machine shop fixed the part. It wasn't fun at all.
116 isn't a perpetual bottom feeder though, and 116 made the semi-final at the same regional the very next year. Success is neither the norm nor totally unknown to the team. But for some teams, however, that is not the case. The annually uncompetitive teams tend to be the ones that fade away much more frequently than the power houses. While there are exceptions to this, as with any generalization, I challenge anyone to provide significant evidence to disprove this point. You don't see teams like 67, 71, 111, 233, 254, 469, or 1114 going anywhere anytime soon. And part of their continuous success is derived from their sponsors, who allow them much greater amounts of stability than a majority of teams, both in terms of mentors and funding.
I'm not worried about the teams with consistent support, like 116, who may occasionally fall to the bottom. I'm worried about the teams who struggle for survival each year, and when they don't do well, they might not be able to find the support, from themselves or others, to return the next year.

I know I'm not, and I don't think anyone else is either, saying that FIRST is totally broken. I'm saying that there are some issues, particularly in concern to team retention, that need to be examined. Every time a new complaint comes up you can't brush it aside by looking at a success, especially when the complaints are far from isolated. When veteran teams like 157 have issues, or when teams who have been around for ages like 225 and 388 fold, there is a serious problem. Especially when FIRST's low-cost alternative, FTC, has a very uncertain future. When a team is in short supply of money, I cannot suggest to them with a clean conscious purchasing the quantity of Vex parts and field accessories needed to create a competitive FTC team knowing that FTC might not use the Vex platform next year. There are issues that need to be addressed, and I'm glad to hear that they aren't be ignored by FIRST (ie the President's circle). But for those who claim that FIRST is succeeding so let's continue blindly along, a reality check may soon be in store.

[synth3tk]

Well, Team 964 didn't finish last, but we certainly weren't the team with the least amount of funds. We had fun, sure our robot broke down during the last round and we had to borrow an idea for wheel traction. Bottom line, let this stuff get untangled by those who are meant to deal with it. If a team is pulling out, it may be financial, it may be support, it may be lack of interest. Who knows.

[ducttapedude]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

But for those who claim that FIRST is succeeding so let's continue blindly along, a reality check may soon be in store.

no one said that we should continue blindly along, all that was said was that as long as we are doing what we're doing now (which is working on trying to fix problems) I do not see FIRST falling apart

[JoeXIII'007]

I have skimmed through this long thread, and have some thoughts:

-Diversification of funding is key to survival of a team. I would seek support from the government, but if received, not to be depended on considering how rapid the political landscape can change.

-FIRSTs expansion is definitely a double-edged sword. Growth to spread the message is marvelous, but there are ailing older teams as well that could face even more trouble if possible sponsors and funding are taken up and stretched by the new teams. Money is not something that grows on trees for certain.
(Edit: However, if FIRST were to take FRC and FTC, and somehow merge the two into a mid-sized robotics competition format (thinking vex is small, FRC is large, F?? would be the combination of the two... ), we might have a survival plan)

-School support of programs is great, so long there is not any surrounding politics to hurt it. Here in the Willow Run area, politics almost KO'd Team (66) existence this year due to an imposed contract on teachers. The teachers in response decided to drop their extracurriculars (except the normal sports... [where's the emoticon for hmph!]). I would cite an article from the Ann Arbor News explaining this but Mlive.com has only a 14 day archive when the article was run in early September. Fortunately, GM is keeping the team afloat and from what I have heard and operations are going on as usual, recruitment is pretty good for the year too (I love GM for that, very very much).

Other than that, I would attribute rising costs to the current state of the economy (it isnt bad but it isnt too great either). Just do what you can to survive, be ambitious if you have great ambitions,

... and make sure you have a whole lotta fun while doing it.

Edit: Lastly, a bit about inspiring, the key of FIRST's success. For my 4 years of high school I mentored the Lego League at Willow Run Middle School. That was to make a long story short the most difficult task I have ever brought upon myself and some of my Team 66 teammates. Due to district problems my senior year, the team did not start until late September. Competition was rough, placing 22nd out of 24th, and there were not many happy faces on the team heading home. However, several parents were remarking how their kids were interested in the robotics kit, and I gave them information on how to get it, etc.

Well, March came along with the Great Lakes Regional. We had invited district schools to the regional to watch, along with the FLL team. When I came to them they were so happy, and so was I to see them quite alright after a horrible experience in November. The fact they welcomed me still after all of the FLL season was the biggest expression of appreciation and the best return for my efforts ever. I didnt need any one of them to say 'thanks' or anything, I just knew they appreciated what I did. They also had a lot of fun at GLR too.

Just remember, a spark of inspiration can produce a lifetime of success. FIRST fosters that quite well, no matter what the condition.

[Gboehm]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As a member of a team that did finish dead last in a 62 team competition and not get selected to the eliminations, the best I can say for that year (in terms of fun) is "meh".

Hey I'm not gonna bash you on this statement at all. Winning is fun, if it wasn't, there would be no point to any competition. I've been on both sides, there have been competitions where I couldn't wait for it to end just so I could go home because everything is piling against you and nothing is working. On the flip side, I have heard We Are The Champions and walked away on top of the world. And I have to say, those days where you are just beating yourself, and smacking your head against the wall, and you just wish the robot would catch fire so you could go home, make the top of the mountain that much sweeter. I wish everyone can experiance both, because you will never feel more satisfied.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Gboehm

and you just wish the robot would catch fire so you could go home.

I've never quite heard it put this way before but I know exactly what you're saying -

[Taylor]

What a wonderful tangent this thread has taken.

Entering our fourth season, we have certainly improved. We understand and strategize games better, build more complete robots, and have experienced team growth and maturity.
However, we have not yet been truly competitive. While it hurts to watch the alliance pairings and awards ceremonies only to come out empty-handed, it only makes us hungrier.

I can safely predict that when we get picked in the regional alliance selection, we'll throw a bigger party and celebrate louder than some teams do when they win the Championships.

[cooker52]

I notice, scanning through this thread, that people have brought up many reasons for people quiting. Reasons like cost, lack of interest, etc. Another point has been brought up that Dean's goal was to put FIRST into every school.

I would like to bring up one other point. Everyone knows that FIRST stands For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology, but I haven't seen someone mention this. No matter who is involved in FIRST, no matter what happens to them, whether they quit because of family issues, because they have a lack of interest or because of anything else, it is rare for FIRST to not full-fill its goal. Every person who interacts with FIRST will always come out with greater knowledge, greater respect, and greater inspiration for science and technology. That is what FIRST is truly about.

So, as people see others quiting for all of their different reasons, and, though it is truly sad to see them go, it is also great to see them have the chance to participate in such an event as FIRST.

If we could keep all of the teams alive and well, and if we could keep every member involved and keep expanding, that would be great. But it is like the circle of life, where nothing is perfect. As new teams and members come into FIRST, other will leave. It is part of this crazy world we live in, where we will never be able to fully control anything and where we can only go with the flow that life drives us in.

I hope I didn't bring anyone down with that last statement of mine.

[JaneYoung]

One thing that I think has been surfacing for some time and is now coming into full view as evidenced in some of our posts - is retention of some of our veteran teams and our teams with a couple of years under their belt. We are seeing that this needs to be addressed. If a team is struggling to stay afloat and just can't manage it due to a drop in sponsorship or a change in mentorship or school support, there are ways to help the team. Maybe some of these ways have been defined/clarified. Maybe many ways have yet to be developed/explored. It is inevitable that FIRST will continue to develop over time and mentors/teachers will retire. Students will become mentors - Businesses will develop from within and without. While the program is still relatively young, it is good that we are questioning as we struggle with these issues. As we question, we can strive to develop and implement ideas in areas that will make the program stronger, using the ever expanding experiences/resources within the teams to help strengthen it - not weaken. My thinking is that the President's Circle is a great start with exploring some of this. And don't forget, with each passing incredible year, we continue to add the wisdom and knowledge of our growing circle of Woodie Flowers Award winners and our Hall of Fame teams to this effort. They are invaluable to us.