The Sad truth

[Daniel_LaFleur]

What FIRST is now beginning to see (although I believe it's been going on all the time) is the effects of competitive darwinism. Teams are increasingly finding that they need to be adabpable not only on the field of play, but in the world of business, finance, worker retention, and sales.

The world FIRST is in is changing. FIRST needs to look at team retention and decide if it wants to be darwinian (capitalistic) or communal (socialistic) in it's plan for retaining teams.

If it chooses to remain capitalistic, then to retain teams FIRST needs to show to newer (and struggling) teams how the self-sufficiant teams are doing it.

If it chooses to be socialistic, then it must create a central fund that can support teams in need.

Sooner or later the choice will need to be made ... or we will continue to see teams fail.

[thefro526]

After being on a team who's budget didn't get approved until a week before registration I have developed a unique opinion on the matter. Many people fail to blame themselves in situations like this. Yes it is true that FIRST isn't perfect and they could improve on some things but the same is true for us. Many teams who have money issues should sometimes blame themselves. In my teams case no one really takes the fundraising seriously many are like well i sell a cheesecake here or a dinner ticket there but no one really has the drive to go out and fundraise. So our money issue was brought on by ourselves and because of our sub-par fundraising attempts our robot may not be the greatest and we may not enter the 3rd event like we wanted but I do blame FIRST for this fact. In general the people at FIRST try to keep the costs fair to teams they set prices and we must deal with them and if the prices for events haven't changed in a while we really can't complain because we knew what we were getting into when we signed up.

Also isn't engineering about doing something to the best of your abilities and using what you have. Perhaps we need to go back to a minimalist perspective. Sure 10+ wheel drives are nice but do we really need them, and that 3rd motor is great but is it a necessity, and do we really need to purple anodize our whole robot. These are the questions we must ask of ourselves. Sometimes if we spent just a bit less on extra stuff on our robots then maybe teams will have the extra money for that 3rd competition or they can ask for a little less from there students and schools. Maybe we should all look at the older robots and see what people did before 2 speed transmission and light sensing cameras. These robots will tell us that with just a bit more time and thought we can do the same for less.

[Travis Hoffman]

I would suggest one idea to help ensure team survival is to form an alliance with as many other teams in your geographic area as you can. Think of it as President's Circle Lite. While the FIRST President's Circle initiative would (presumably) seek to develop solutions that would fit for all FIRST teams in all regions coming from all kinds of educational and social and economic backgrounds, I think you could also apply the same collaborative brainstorming model to an alliance of teams within your own region, attempting to share experiences and generate additional ideas that will solve unique challenges related to your region's specific makeup.

Locally, four FIRST teams spread out over two counties formed the Northeast Ohio FIRST Robotics Alliance (NEOFRA) during the summer. In the past, our teams have worked together here and there and have extended assistance to each other, but we've never really focused on banding together and forming a long-term, year-round partnership until now.

We are fortunate to have a very diverse mix of teams in this partnership. There's the veteran, historically resource-laden team in 48 who depends upon Delphi and the school district as their primary funding sponsors. We have never been a huge fundraising team (although the need for this has increased over recent years as funding levels have declined), but we have learned over the years how to better stretch our resources out for maximum benefit. We're still learning. There's also a veteran team in 379 who doesn't have the luxury of a single large corporate sponsorship. Because of this, they've learned to become tireless, creative, and efficient fundraisers to generate the majority of the funds needed to operate their team. There's a veteran team in 276 who's had their share of ups and downs over the years, but has learned how to survive even during even the roughest of times, and there's a one year team in 2010 who just spent the 2007 season learning how to successfully start up and stabilize the funding and operations of a brand new rookie team.

NEOFRA is not simply a technical collaboration - we share ideas that touch upon all aspects of our teams ranging from the obvious technical topics, to fundraising and promotions, to community outreach, to holding shared FIRST classes, to seeking combined savings on travel arrangements, to FLL, to ...., to .... By combining forces and sharing our strengths with fellow alliance teams, we seek to eliminate our team weaknesses. We seek to not only save money, but save time and reduce duplicated efforts. Separately, our mentorship bases may have declined over the years, but by pooling our mentor resources together, we can maximize the efficiency of those who remain while simultaneously extending our reach to more students.

Even though our alliance is still in its infant stages, we are hopeful our NEOFRA partnership will further insulate ourselves from unthinkable team shutdowns in the event the unexpected occurs, and we also believe this organization is now more empowered to seek out, start up, and guide new rookie teams through their initial year of existence. Our collective experiences will make it so much easier to reach out to government officials, new sponsors, and schools that it ever was when we were working separately. It's always easier to do [Dean's] homework when you "study" together instead of going at it alone.

I guess the moral of the story is - if you feel like all is lost and there's nowhere else to turn, or even if you are still a stable team but fear the unexpected, don't be afraid to reach out and form strong connections with other schools and teams in your area. If you don't have any teams in your immediate area, expand your search until you find the help you need. See if you can discover ways in which you can help each other survive and ultimately grow. Unite to form a strong core center of expertise in your region and who knows? Maybe that central seed you plant together will blossom into further team expansion all around you? Is this an uber-altruistic thought? Yes, but this kind of dream will never happen unless you give it a try.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by thefro526

... and do we really need to purple anodize our whole robot. These are the questions we must ask of ourselves. ...

The answer is YES it MUST be PURPLE. And our hair too! It's about selling an image to our sponsors. The leader firmly believed it our rookie season and after seeing its power last season I'm all for it, even though I'm usually not the kind of person that jumps through hoops like that. Go figure we won 2006 Rookie All-Stars in Atlanta.

Imagery is an award at the competitions, but it's often not ramped up like the others. If you don't know how to sell your robotics program to the community (eventually earning you a budget), perhaps you could start by coming up with some creative ways via imagery. Even though we engineers believe 42 is the answer to life and ignore that thing called "psychology", without someone to do all of these non-engineering things it would be nearly impossible to do our engineering things. Some of us simply lack the sociological programming (like me) to be able to really convince others our endeavors are needed ... well, maybe it's just that some people are better than others at it. If you're already doing your best each year, then keep at it.

Take as an example Einstein in his early years -- whacky hair, probably talked 95 miles/minute. How do you think he got people to even take a look at his first papers on theory? He probably used the 10-ft elevator on his 2007 FRC robot to get high school football film at angles the news crews only wished they could get.


you can't possibly think I meant for you to take that last sentence literally...though at first glance it doesn't seem like a bad idea

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by JesseK

The answer is YES it MUST be PURPLE.

...I like purple.

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

If teams are finding it difficult to raise the necessary cash levels to compete in FRC, there are alternatives that provide (IMHO) nearly* as much inspiration for engineering as FRC. These include:

FIRST Tech Challenge (cost: $300 + competition entry fees)
Savage Soccer (free!)
Bridge Battle (free!)
Botball
Trinity Firefighting Robot Competition
Marble Madness (up to $75)
Rah Cha Cha Ruckus Vex Game (cost: $10)
MATE (Underwater) ROV Competition
BEST Robotics, Inc.
Battlebots IQ

...and the list goes on and on.

You forgot National Underwater Robotics Challenge
www.h2orobots.org

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by Cory

This is the million dollar question.

FRC will never meet Dean's goal of being in every school in America. It's simply too expensive. Much of the country is already saturated with teams. There isn't enough money to support more than a few teams per school district (or even that many, in some cases).

The average FRC team probably costs in excess of $10,000 per year. That's an astronomically high price for an after school activity. Granted we all know it's one of the most amazing programs a student can be a part of, but all that money has to come from somewhere.

VEX/FTC is a big step forward towards Dean's vision. It could be plausible that sometime in the near(ish) future there could be a FTC team in most schools in the country. It's much cheaper, yet it also gives students a taste of the experience they will receive in FRC. Once they move on from VEX, they can join a local FRC team, even if their school does not have it's own.

I've thought for awhile that FIRST is growing too quickly in California. I don't know about other states, but it seems like too many teams are being started, with no long term plan for funding, mentorship, etc (or a plan, but just falling short of being able to execute it). I'd much rather see no new teams be started, and every old team last at least 10 years than a ton of new teams popping up, but then being forced to quit after a few years when they can't sustain their program.

Mentor turnover is a big issue too. Working (or going to school), mentoring a team, raising a family, having a life outside of FIRST, etc is very difficult with the current time commitment required by FRC mentors. It's very easy to burn out, between the actual work with the students, and the strain of arranging travel, fundraising, paperwork, actual travel and supervision of the students, etc.

I know personally that last year I was spending over 65 hours a week physically at our team's facility during the competition season. Combine that with attending school full time, missing 12 days of class (and even more time with friends/family/etc) due to attending competitions, and eventually something has to give.

Pretty soon there will be too many teams for anyone to attend the Championship, outside of regional winners, and chairman's award winners. Presumably at some point there may not even be enough space for all those teams.

FRC will get too big for it's own good. The only question is how soon will it be?

Have you priced a football team.......
How about the basketball team.......
Lets talk really easy, how about cross country......
The coach makes about 4-5k alone let alone the buses, uniforms, entry fees, awards, and meals. That could easily be 10k. and every school has how many teams? Its not that we don't have the money, its what do you want to spend the money on.

Just my input as a former coach. By the way, football can spend 10k in one to two games. Head coach, assist coaches, trainers, doctor, school administration, news paper personnel, cheer leader coaches, grounds keepers, maintenance men, bus drivers, buses, etc... yes they make money, but nothing compared to what they spend. Schools don't blink at spending here!

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by David Brinza

Doesn't this come down to the priorities of the school and school district?

As much as I might enjoy football, I don't think of it as a necessary activity that has a positive impact on society and our future. Yet, sports programs often thrive in schools where computer access for students is limited, laboratory equipment is archaic, arts and music departments face budget cuts. That's just wrong!

When doing Dean's homework, we need to clearly describe this situation in writing to our government officials. If FIRST becomes "curriculum" where the costs are borne through district budgets (derived from the tax base), then FIRST teams won't have to struggle to do so much fund-raising or rely on fickle corporate sponsors in order to survive. I think doing some fund-raising and selling the FIRST program to sponsors is in itself a valuable, educational activity, but it shouldn't become an overwhelming, all-consuming ordeal.

While we're at it, students should look at their own spending habits: extravagant proms, expensive clothing/shoes, latest video/computer games, etc. before criticizing the cost of FIRST participation. Do the "cost-benefit" analysis and decide what the best use of your dollars is in the long run. Don't you get more out of a trip to Atlanta than a night in a limo, tux and fancy dinner?

Priorities...it's in Dean's message.

Right on Brother!!

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I'm pretty sure you're not looking at the same budgets I am. A large part of the funding for most sports programs comes from tickets and concession sales, booster clubs provide another big chunk, and sponsorship is significant. In a few specific cases I know, parents are required to volunteer (yes, it's an oxymoron) for a certain amount of concession duty, or to buy their way out of the obligation. The costs cannot be "absorbed" by the school; they must be covered by income from specific sources.

And in many schools, the students (or their parents) do pay to be part of the football team, sometimes on the order of several hundred dollars a season.


The biggest difference in funding models I see between football and FRC teams is that admission is free to watch FRC competitions. As long as FRC is cheap for the spectators, it will be expensive for the participants.

This is part of the paradigm that FIRST teams need to change, get FIRST to be accepted into the schools so they too can follow the sports model that exists in schools today. We can only do this be continuing to grow until we cannot be ignored, then no FIRST team at any school will be ignored.

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

FIRST is doing that. Do you remember the homework assignment from last year? We need to start shifting our focus away from private sources and start demanding public sources for the funding we need. This is going to require a shift in our thinking. We need to start inspiring the local community and getting them excited about what we are doing everyday.

YES!

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Our team comes from a unique environment. We are located in a large city. We have the luxury that most teams don't. The Toronto District School Board is really behind FIRST. They pay for the Regional Director as a full time person. They support all of FIRST's programs. They financially support all of their FRC teams to the point of paying for their fees for the Greater Toronto Regional. I say this not to make others feel bad but to point to what I feel is necessary for FIRST to grow. My belief is that we shouldn't be trying to start individual teams but rather convert school boards. There are many times I have spoken to teams from outside of T.O. and hear of the trouble even getting the school boards support. Getting money is out of the question with them.

School administration is political. The teachers and principals want to look good to their bosses. If we can get the boards to promote the cause then the local schools will jump on board. How do we accomplish that you ask? Ahhh, that is a topic for another thread.

Yes the school boards are an excellent place to start changing the paradigm!

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

One thing that I think has been surfacing for some time and is now coming into full view as evidenced in some of our posts - is retention of some of our veteran teams and our teams with a couple of years under their belt. We are seeing that this needs to be addressed. If a team is struggling to stay afloat and just can't manage it due to a drop in sponsorship or a change in mentorship or school support, there are ways to help the team. Maybe some of these ways have been defined/clarified. Maybe many ways have yet to be developed/explored. It is inevitable that FIRST will continue to develop over time and mentors/teachers will retire. Students will become mentors - Businesses will develop from within and without. While the program is still relatively young, it is good that we are questioning as we struggle with these issues. As we question, we can strive to develop and implement ideas in areas that will make the program stronger, using the ever expanding experiences/resources within the teams to help strengthen it - not weaken. My thinking is that the President's Circle is a great start with exploring some of this. And don't forget, with each passing incredible year, we continue to add the wisdom and knowledge of our growing circle of Woodie Flowers Award winners and our Hall of Fame teams to this effort. They are invaluable to us.

You go girl! We keep fighting here in AZ, We just gave a presentation to the school board where we should them how over the last 6 years there have been over 3 million dollars in scholarships awarded to students at our school because of FIRST. No one has mentioned that aspect in this thread. Also at the end of our presentation, our team challenged the board to lead the state and start funding robotics "coaches" like they do athletic coaches, no more, no less. If we don't see results, we will do it again! Eventually they will get the message. By the way, our principal got reprimanded for letting us present to the board, with that zinger at the end.

[falconmaster]

Ok! Now I am caught up on this thread....Whew!!!!!

[zakk]

well i would also agree with alot of things posted in this thread,

and one thing about FIRST is the competetive darwinism.

the survival of the fittest.

and teams must realize that even though FIRST is about engineering, it is also important for team members to learn about business and financing.

we have basically done that as a team this year, it is completely student run. our teacher mentors are pretty much there to ask questions to and sign checks. they have pushed us into having our own financig team who look at all of our expences, our funding from sponsors, and how much we need to spend on various competitions and parts.

we also have a public relations group who deal with sponsors and trying to get funding from the government and other groups.

so what im basically trying to say is that i think that teams should also teach the students about things such as how to deal with their finances, how to write a decent letter to a respectable company or government official.

learning things like that is all part of the FIRST experience. (in my eyes at least)

[wilsonmw04]

I agree that there is far more to learn from a FIRST team than how to build a robot, however, i don't agree with this "survival of the fittest" rationale. Every school had a football team. no one has ever said, "man, there are already 3 football teams in the county, there just isn't enough funding for another one."
We need to start thinking that every student deserves to have a FIRST team at their school. again, this will take a shift from private funding to public funding.