MAJOR TWEAKING

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Posted by Ken Patton, Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/16/99 4:43 PM MST


In Reply to: MAJOR TWEAKING posted by Bill Beatty on 4/15/99 10:07 PM MST:



Bill-

I think being allowed to work on the robots during the 2-1/2 days after a regional is fine, because it gives the teams a chance to do development under the same 'crunch time' atmosphere as the six week period.

Our team has, in two of our three years, benefitted a from the extra days to make changes. Our first year ('97 Toroid Terror), we never even took the robot apart, just sent it from our only regional to the nationals. Our second year (Ladder Logic), we scrapped a wedger arm and added a much simpler/cheaper/better 2 ball gripper arm like the one Team 68 had. This year, we took our 'can' - which originally served as a device to load floppies into a pretty crappy bag - and attached it to our lift mechanism along with a motor to rotate it. We got rid of the bag. This change was made during the Sun/Mon/Tues time period after Chicago. We added another feature after Ypsi (again during the Sun/Mon/Tues time period) that will allow us to stay on the puck better, we hope.

So if you want to complain about someone, I guess we are a good candidate, because there's no doubt that we benefit from it. But.... we use crate materials, we do not make functional changes or new function parts except during the Sun/Mon/Tues period, and the spares we make during the 'off' time are functionally identical. I believe that we are obeying the letter and spirit of the rules. I think it makes the competitions more exciting because many of the robots are better as a result.

As long as the rules are the same for everyone, I think its okay to allow work on the robots in the days just after the regionals. I envy you and your team for getting it right the first time, and I certainly understand your point of view when you see other teams improving.

Good Luck in FL,
Ken

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Posted by Ken Patton, Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/16/99 5:06 PM MST


In Reply to: MAJOR TWEAKING posted by Bill Beatty on 4/15/99 10:07 PM MST:



Bill-

I think being allowed to work on the robots during the 2-1/2 days after a regional is fine, because it gives the teams a chance to do development under the same 'crunch time' atmosphere as the six week period.

Our team has, in two of our three years, benefitted a from the extra days to make changes. Our first year ('97 Toroid Terror), we never even took the robot apart, just sent it from our only regional to the nationals. Our second year (Ladder Logic), we scrapped a wedger arm and added a much simpler/cheaper/better 2 ball gripper arm like the one Team 68 had. This year, we took our 'can' - which originally served as a device to load floppies into a pretty crappy bag - and attached it to our lift mechanism along with a motor to rotate it. We got rid of the bag. This change was made during the Sun/Mon/Tues time period after Chicago. We added another feature after Ypsi (again during the Sun/Mon/Tues time period) that will allow us to stay on the puck better, we hope.

So if you want to complain about someone, I guess we are a good candidate, because there's no doubt that we benefit from it. But.... we use crate materials, we do not make functional changes or new function parts except during the Sun/Mon/Tues period, and the spares we make during the 'off' time are functionally identical. I believe that we are obeying the letter and spirit of the rules. I think it makes the competitions more exciting because many of the robots are better as a result.

As long as the rules are the same for everyone, I think its okay to allow work on the robots in the days just after the regionals. I envy you and your team for getting it right the first time, and I certainly understand your point of view when you see other teams improving.

Good Luck in FL,
Ken

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Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 4/16/99 10:24 PM MST


In Reply to: MAJOR TWEAKING posted by Bill Beatty on 4/15/99 10:07 PM MST:




i've yet to have a chance to read through the thread following your message Mr. Beatty, but i would just like to make a comment..

i don't know whether i'm pro or con.. fact is, that this is my fourth year on my team, and we've really only done tweaking and replacement of used parts with new ones in those three days after regionals, before shipping to nationals.

but, a point i'd like to make. i know that in '95 i was in eighth grade and took a little ride up to NH to watch the regional competition (that was the 1st time the national wasn't in NH).. the Clinton/Nypro team didn't fair so well, in fact, i think we finished very close to the bottom of the rack that year. however, seeing an ineffective ball pickup, they took the then 4/5 days they had to work and threw on a new pickup system that carried them to 2nd place in the national competition.

so why i can't decide whether i'm for or against the idea?.. cause of moments like that... i see nothing wrong with what the team did there, but most rules outlawing change would've taken away the team's run for silver. however, i see totally what you're saying, the idea of someone building parts/robots in between is unfair/illegal... is there a happy medium that we could come to that would allow people to change (cause i know that FIRST people can work well, quickly, and efficiently, and many could handle that major change in that 3 day period) before shipping but not out of the crate?

is there some way all teams could get inspected, or at least checked as to the major components on their robot as soon as the unload so that any added major parts in the pit area could be detected?.. i don't know..what's everyone else's spin? (nevermind.. i'll read through the thread i suppose!)

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Posted by Bill Beatty, Other on team #71, Team Hammond, from Team Hammond.

Posted on 4/16/99 11:17 PM MST


In Reply to: MAJOR TWEAKING posted by Bill Beatty on 4/15/99 10:07 PM MST:



I thank everyone for their frank and up-front opinions. I totally agree with you all, because you are all correct! And, of course, that is my point. I don't believe it is in the best interest of the competition to leave such a gaping void in the rules that allows such a broad interpretation by a group of professionals who I feel are of the highest integrity. It is not possible to address this area for this year's Nationals and I only raised this subject before Florida in attempts to alleviate any thoughts that I might be addressing any particular team, robot or incident that might occur at the Nationals.

My own personal preference is similar to Greg's. With the ever-increasing number of regionals, a broad interpretation of the revision and repair rule soon totally negates the six-week time lmit. Hopefully FIRST will clarify this area for next year. I know it will increase all of our comfort levels

Joe, I don't totally agree with you concerning FIRST'S technical inspections.. This year at one of the regionals our Velcro belt was challenged by one of the inspectors. The belt was disallowed because it was listed on the bill material as additional material which allows up to a total of 12 feet of chain or belt -- any combination. We had to revise our bill of material to reflect the cost of a 1 in. wide Velcro loop purchased from Small Parts. Oh well.

Looking forward to seeing all you folks in Florida.

Bill Beatty

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Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 4/17/99 11:26 AM MST


In Reply to: EVERYONE'S RIGHT posted by Bill Beatty on 4/16/99 11:17 PM MST:



: Joe, I don't totally agree with you concerning FIRST'S technical inspections.. This year at one of the regionals our Velcro belt was challenged by one of the inspectors. The belt was disallowed because it was listed on the bill material as additional material which allows up to a total of 12 feet of chain or belt -- any combination. We had to revise our bill of material to reflect the cost of a 1 in. wide Velcro loop purchased from Small Parts. Oh well.

If you were using the Velcro as a belt, what was the rationale for disallowing
it as a belt from the additional parts list?

- Jerry

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Posted by Bill Beatty, Other on team #71, Team Hammond, from Team Hammond.

Posted on 4/17/99 1:47 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: EVERYONE'S RIGHT posted by Jerry Eckert on 4/17/99 11:26 AM MST:



:Jerry

The ruling was it was not a purchased belt. It was manufactured. They were not questioning the Velcro hook loops attached to the belt as they were ruled as fasteners.The Velcro Loop backing had been purchased from Small Parts and fortunately we had money available.

Bill Beatty

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Posted by Dan, Other on team #247, da Bears, from Berkley High and PICO/Wisne Design.

Posted on 4/17/99 3:42 AM MST


In Reply to: MAJOR TWEAKING posted by Bill Beatty on 4/15/99 10:07 PM MST:



While this discussion has been about the level of tweaking that
should, or should not, be allowed, I would like to add to the comments
about a team's chance to tweak at all. I believe the current system of
rules is inherently unfair especially for teams who can not make it
to any regional. Each regional gives a team six extra days to practice,
tweak and improve their robot. The more regionals a team goes to, the
more advantage (potentially) that team has over teams that go to fewer or
no regionals. The six-week ship rule is supposed to create a level playing
field but that is quickly lost in the current regional competition
structure. For example, a team that attends two regioanls has an extra
twelve days with their robot. What about the teams going to no
regionals...big disadvantage.

Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Limit each team to one regional and allow teams going to no regional
to keep their robot an extra six days after the ship date.

2. Get rid of the six-week ship date altogther and allow teams to compete
in as many regionals as they want. This way all are in possesion of
their robot for about the same amount of time. Its simple...start Jan xx,
ship April xx. Make one ship date prior to nationals.
It would provide teams a more relaxed schedule, more time to tweak and
practice, and more time to involve the students in the engineering
process.

As they say, thats two cents

Good luck to all in Florida!!
-Dan

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Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 4/17/99 9:11 AM MST


In Reply to: re: tweaking posted by Dan on 4/17/99 3:42 AM MST:



Dan,

We had this discussion a few days back in the Rumor Mill. If you want to know what people think, go there.

As a result of the discussion, people reached a creative solution. Follow the thread linked below to find out about it...


-Daniel

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Posted by Dan, Other on team #247, da Bears, from Berkley High and PICO/Wisne Design.

Posted on 4/17/99 5:02 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: re: tweaking posted by Daniel on 4/17/99 9:11 AM MST:



: Dan,

: We had this discussion a few days back in the Rumor Mill. If you want to know what people think, go there.

: As a result of the discussion, people reached a creative solution. Follow the thread linked below to find out about it...

:
: -Daniel

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Posted by Ed Sparks, Engineer on team #34, DaimlerChrysler Electronics & Bob Jones High School, from Bob Jones High School and DaimlerChrysler.

Posted on 4/17/99 6:46 AM MST


In Reply to: MAJOR TWEAKING posted by Bill Beatty on 4/15/99 10:07 PM MST:



Initially I thought to myself that I liked the idea of having the robot
in our possession up to finals but soon realized the likely outcome.
It seems to me that a lot of teams would modify their machines to
duplicate the winning machines at the regionals. I can see it now, 300
(Dean might say this number should be a little higher) teams in Orlando
with nearly the same machine designs, how boring !

Why get repair days at all? Why don't we just create those puppies up
and send them to their next destination. Maybe FIRST can open the pits
a little earlier or even give us a day in the pits before each event.
Let us make those 'identical' or 'functionally identical' spare parts
between events ( talk about a test of your documentation ! ) and slap
them on at the next event.

I don't think that FIRST is likely to restrict the number of regionals
to one. It goes against the expansion grain not to mention they make a
little more money on those that go to multiple events (see Joe's post on
this).

OK, so I can't stand it anymore. I've got the car gassed up, the robot
trailer packed & hitched, my toothbrush, sunblock (VERY IMPORTANT), and
sunglasses packed. I'm heading out Monday morning @ 5:00 a.m. Since I'm
a coach as well as an engineer and probably will not see the light of
day once the competition begins, I thought I would spend a day or two
goofing off. Don't tell my boss this isn't a five day event ;-)

Stop by Pit #34

See 'ya soon

Ed