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Unread 12-12-2007, 17:33
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Ultimately, the money must be coming from somewhere right? Just because the venue, lodging, and shipping are all donated does not make it more cost effective. How scalable is this really?

I came from a University of Washington team that is no longer in existence because of funding (and not from a lack of trying). The few suitable sites for a full regional are prohibitively expensive on this scale. It took Microsoft, and presumably a great financial support to hold a regional in the this area at all.

I feel that working with FIRST to bring regional costs down would be more valuable then trying to add new events through a separate system. It is frustrating how expensive some of these events are, but in reality it is because there are usually huge costs associated with running an event.

If it is easy to run events where the registration fees were only $500 then why can't all existing regionals be ran this way? And if it is just in specific locations that this program works then why not create official regionals there through partnership with FIRST and the University or other organizations and then take whatever extra funds there are to sponsor rookies and provide team grants?

I agree with the intentions of this program, to encourage new rookie teams to be created and increase the likelihood of these teams developing into sustainable organizations. Leveling the playing field though? Obviously money should be a limited factor in how well a team does, but this would be effectively giving rookies an extra couple days to work on their robots over other teams only attending 1 regional. It is no good to discourage a 2+ year team that has worked hard and yet are marginalized among the rookies who have had longer to work on their machines and some field-practice time. You have to keep out some of the randomness that comes from artificially leveling the playing field in ways that are not unilateral.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 17:44
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Since no teams qualify for Chairman's, I'm going to say Rookie Allstar, Rookie Inspiration, and Highest Rookie Seed awards become very competitive.

Who wants to do a Fantasy FIRST for this regional? Everyone picks a team by random, or funniest arrangement of numbers.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 17:47
Dave Flowerday Dave Flowerday is offline
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Out of curiosity, how much of the cost we pay right now is going to pay for the regional venues? Simply switching to a high-school gym (even if we kept all the lighting, A/V, etc) might be a big money-saver. I've heard some numbers tossed around regarding some of the venue costs and those numbers were pretty big (but I don't know if they were at all accurate).

Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 17:53
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

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Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday View Post
Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.
I've heard that it's about $250,000 for a full regional. I'd guess that a lot of that is from venue costs. (The rest would be the A/V, primarily. Maybe team social as well.)
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Unread 12-12-2007, 18:34
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

I have no idea what the goals and objectives of IRI 2007 were other than providing a rocking competition this summer. It also provided an excellent opportunity to take a moment and savor where FIRST has come from, where FIRST is, and where it could possibly go - in a high school gym. It was a total blast.

At some point, a tier system or districting system may need to be looked at regarding FRC teams. We may not be there yet in all areas across the board but there appear to be regions that need to start addressing growth needs now. This can be used as a pilot program as is stated, for learning and developing, and it has great models to work from, in many ways, in off season events like IRI.

The deal with homework is that it works. There have been dedicated teams who have done their homework and as this continues, options will need to be looked at and explored.
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Unread 20-02-2008, 23:00
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Thumbs up Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Well, first off, as much as it sounds good, there are many reasons there will never be a FRC team in every high school, I don't care what state you're from. Even if money was taken out of the equation, personalities and other administrator's priorities cannot be.

I understand you want to help out the rookies by giving them an opportunity to shake out their designs. I think it is unfair they get to play with their robots before a regional and after ship date. Do the veterans from MI have a different ship date than the rest of the country? I think not.
I think it is very fair. My team is a small team who has never been able to do more then just the 1 competition. Do you remember what it was like to be a rookie. More than likely most of the teams who come won't even have a robot fully built. I can't speak for any other state, but here in MI we tend to help each other as much as possible. We hold mini scrimmages before ship, we help each other during build. Not just online either. I personally helped 4 other teams the day before and day of ship. Monday night I didn't get to bed until 3 AM. Our robot was finished and others needed help. I hope others do this as well.

Instead of criticizing, come join us. I think it is going to be a ton of fun. We are doing things a little different. We will have donated prizes like batteries, tools etc instead of trophies. Kettering who is the top engineering school out there has graciously donated the space for this fun event.

Last edited by maltz1881 : 20-02-2008 at 23:03.
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Unread 22-02-2008, 09:55
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

[quote=maltz1881;704028... I think it is going to be a ton of fun. We are doing things a little different. We will have donated prizes like batteries, tools etc instead of trophies. Kettering who is the top engineering school out there has graciously donated the space for this fun event.[/QUOTE]

I hear that many teams like CD, WildStang, Martians, and company have so many trophys that they use them for door stops and hammers. Too bad there wasn't a Rookie Regional to start them off right.

The RR now has 23 registered teams. They only need one more (and for all to show up) to fill the elimination rounds.

One more rookie team out there should not pass up such a deal. You will get to play in the eliminations. You will get at least 16 qualifying matches*. That's two regionals worth of playing time, and all for $500!!!!

*calculated using a very generous ten minute separation between match. The usual separation is seven minutes.
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Unread 22-02-2008, 10:40
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

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Originally Posted by Jack Jones View Post
The RR now has 23 registered teams. They only need one more (and for all to show up) to fill the elimination rounds.
Is registration still open? How does that work now, with robots already in transit to a Regional somewhere else?

I'm looking forward to working at the tournament.
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Unread 22-02-2008, 10:54
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

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Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post
Is registration still open? How does that work now, with robots already in transit to a Regional somewhere else?

I'm looking forward to working at the tournament.
D'oh! You are right - it would be a major hassle to divert a crate.

Seeing as how teams only have one rookie year, that deal is gone for good!
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Unread 22-02-2008, 11:02
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

So now the question becomes how to trick the scoring system into creating a 7-alliance finals. Copioli knows how to do it by hand, and how NOT to do it automatically (something about no such Team Zero), as found out at ARC last year.
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Unread 22-02-2008, 15:20
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

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Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post
So now the question becomes how to trick the scoring system into creating a 7-alliance finals. Copioli knows how to do it by hand, and how NOT to do it automatically (something about no such Team Zero), as found out at ARC last year.
While I'm sure there is a story with a chuckle behind this post...
I remember seeing somewhere along the way, using all the teams to form alliances with one alliance incomplete (I would guess it was the 8th seeded), and then running the first quarterfinal and selecting the highest ranked team eliminated in that first QF to fill the partial alliance. That way all of the teams still play in the elimination rounds.

Good luck to all of the participants!
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Unread 22-02-2008, 15:33
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

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Originally Posted by Cynette View Post
I remember seeing somewhere along the way, using all the teams to form alliances with one alliance incomplete (I would guess it was the 8th seeded), and then running the first quarterfinal and selecting the highest ranked team eliminated in that first QF to fill the partial alliance. That way all of the teams still play in the elimination rounds.
Because there were only 24 teams at the Pittsburgh regional in 2006, and there needed to be substitutes available, they ran a seven-alliance elimination bracket, and the #1 alliance got a first-round bye.
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Unread 22-02-2008, 15:38
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post
So now the question becomes how to trick the scoring system into creating a 7-alliance finals. Copioli knows how to do it by hand, and how NOT to do it automatically (something about no such Team Zero), as found out at ARC last year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynette View Post
While I'm sure there is a story with a chuckle behind this post...
I remember seeing somewhere along the way, using all the teams to form alliances with one alliance incomplete (I would guess it was the 8th seeded), and then running the first quarterfinal and selecting the highest ranked team eliminated in that first QF to fill the partial alliance. That way all of the teams still play in the elimination rounds.

Good luck to all of the participants!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgannon View Post
Because there were only 24 teams at the Pittsburgh regional in 2006, and there needed to be substitutes available, they ran a seven-alliance elimination bracket, and the #1 alliance got a first-round bye.
That's what happened at ARC as well - 7 alliances with the first alliance getting a bye (or winning 2 games against non-existant alliance 8, if you want to think of it that way).

The amusing part was though everyone knew the concept, the scoring software couldn't be convinced that Alliance 8 consisted of Teams 0, 0 and 0. We were all ready to go, but couldn't cue up a match on the field software.
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Unread 29-02-2008, 12:03
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

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Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post
That's what happened at ARC as well - 7 alliances with the first alliance getting a bye (or winning 2 games against non-existant alliance 8, if you want to think of it that way).

The amusing part was though everyone knew the concept, the scoring software couldn't be convinced that Alliance 8 consisted of Teams 0, 0 and 0. We were all ready to go, but couldn't cue up a match on the field software.
I, for one, do not like that idea because it means that two teams won't get into the eliminations unless they're called up as substitutes.

I'd rather see them have placebo robot(s) for the entire competition. Many veteran teams in the area have practice robots that could fiil the schedule. All 23 teams would get into the elims, and if a few veterains come and fill in, they could substitute for any rookies that fall by the wayside.

Another option I've seen done at RahChaCha, was to have the first seed select only one partner, and then sit out until the other side of the bracket produced a losing alliance. The #1 seed then adopted the lowest seed from that first eliminated alliance. So, every team got to play; the #1 seed didn't get a bye (but did have three robots); and one lucky team got second chance - with the #1 alliance to boot!!!

Last edited by Jack Jones : 29-02-2008 at 12:05.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 17:54
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition

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Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday View Post
Out of curiosity, how much of the cost we pay right now is going to pay for the regional venues? Simply switching to a high-school gym (even if we kept all the lighting, A/V, etc) might be a big money-saver. I've heard some numbers tossed around regarding some of the venue costs and those numbers were pretty big (but I don't know if they were at all accurate).

Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.
My understanding has been that nothing, or nearly nothing, of registration fees go toward hosting regional events. I know a lot of others who're under the same impression, so if that's not true -- or if that isn't a consistent explanation across all events -- it'd be nice for someone to set us straight.
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