Next year: Make the game understandable

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Posted by Tom Vanderslice, Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 5/2/99 8:04 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Next year: Make the game understandable posted by michael bastoni on 5/2/99 3:30 PM MST:



: 1.) What you noticed Andy..the game was REALLY easy to understand..
: Any average Joe surfing through the channels lands on a Robot Wars game and he or she
: immediately 'gets it'..like WWF Wrestling....

: 2.) It was immediately apparent who was winning and who was losing. This
: certainly makes it worth watching....it actually resulted in the
: average channel surfer putting down the remote and setteling in for the
: duration of the program.

: 3.) This is for you JJ....That average channel surfer IMMEDIATELY recognized
: the game from year to year....cause it remained simple and unchanged.

:
: Now I'm NOT advocating we keep the game the same forever....
: Just do not change it EVERY YEAR....why is that such a big
: compromise....what is the difference between 12 months and
: say 24 or 36 or even 48 months....c'mon think about it...give up
: so little,,,,,possibly gain so very much...

Simple games are fun to watch, but simple games are...well...simple...
Part of the fun in doing this is theres a new challenge every year...
something new to do...a different twist on the same thing...now...don't
get me wrong...i'm all for a game the 'average joe' can understand...but
not if it means sacrificing the challenge of FIRST...I mean...the reason
you have so many strategies is there is more than one way to win...now
that makes the game more confusing for a viewer..but more fun for us
(sorry viewers, but in my book you lose this one)...Robot Wars is all
good...let's see if we can kill each other..etc...but if you want robot
wars go do robot wars (or do both)...but i'd like to think that FIRST
wasn't 'just another Robot Wars'...

Sorry...there's not a lot you can do about the winning/losing thing...
the 'running scoreboard' they had this year was about as close as you can
come to that...or play by play...one of the things that makes this
confusing for viewers i think is that teams scores fluctuate...they
can lose points just as easily as gain points...you watch most highly
televised sports...and once the team has the points they aren't going to
lose them...and the team in the lead may change...but once a team has points
they are there...none of this wow...that teams score just doubled...then
10 seconds later...wow it just got cut inhalf and the other teams score
doubled...or anything liek taht...now don't get me wrong...i like scores
that fluctuate and there is a 'max' score that everyone can shoot for and
things...but i'm jsut saying it makes it more confusing...

Recognizing the game is another thing you can't do a lot about w/out
taking the fun out of it...see above...but the fun of it all is the new
challenge...the challenge of building something to do all this stuff in
just 6 weeks...when you have a WHOLE year to think about it...its not
as much fun...i mean...you can have all kinds of ideas for drive trains
and arms etc...but until the official problem is released...you can't
finalize/perfect these designs....if you are going to repeat games then
there is no point in having the 6 week build thing or having teams box
it up or anything...now i know all you engineers would love to do FIRST
all year...forget about your REAL jobs...but somehow i doubt your employers
would love it...
one way to increase recognizability would be to televise all the regionals...
now not neccesarily prime time...just afternoon on broadcast stations or
whatever...or discovery channel or whatever...just to get the word out...
i dunno..just a thought...

another thing about the simplicity thing...all the people i explained the
game to this year were just like 'wow...that sounds really hard...how did
you do this?' or something liek that....i mean...some were overwhelmed..
but if they coudl watch a round while the explanation was going on it made
a lot more sense...its cool to have something people can relate too...
(it's a big pillow...or it's a lot like a big beach ball)...but i don't
think you really want to go all the way to being like...look...our robots
can kick field goals...or hit a home run or whatever...its almost like
you are trying to compete with the sports that way...

well...gee...i'm not sure i said EVERYTHING i wanted to say ...but
it's enough for now...sorry it was so long...

i'd say that was worth at least 3 or 4 cents, right?
Tom
Team 275

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Posted by Kyle Huang, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Gunn High School and Nasa Ames, Sun Microsystems, Xerox.

Posted on 5/2/99 8:28 PM MST


In Reply to: Next year: Make the game understandable posted by Andy Baker on 5/1/99 11:18 PM MST:



Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this, but wasn't this year's game really fun? The
constant need for strategy made the game (at least for me) a lot more exciting. A team
could win or lose a match depending on whether or not they knew their strategy. This
year's game was very complicated, sure, but it was also a challenge - a big challenge.
Making a very simplified game removes a huge portion of the challenge involved in the
design/construction phase, and removes about half of the strategy. Is it worth
sacrificing a huge chunk of the game in order for people who have nothing to do with the
competition can understand it? Maybe we have to be a little selfish here.

I think it would be great if FIRST became as popular as football, but it can't happen
overnight. I think it will spread far and wide, but only gradually. Sure, robowar
competitions became more popular in a shorter time, but they still aren't anywhere near
football. Also keep in mind that anything with the word 'WAR' attached to it immediately
gets attention.

FIRST has been around for what, seven years (correct me if I'm wrong)?
So some people may argue that it should have gained its momentum already. Well, maybe
FIRST's time has come, or should have come. Just remember, it IS gaining popularity.
FIRST teams on the Donny & Marie show, FIRST in a nationally published comic strip,
ESPN, ect. Our team's plane ride home made a stop in Denver, Colorado. A couple that
got on the plane in Denver had heard about the FIRST competition. They hadn't just
come from Disneyworld where they might have heard about it. They knew, and were very
intruiged. FIRST WILL flourish some day, but being as popular as football is also
an extremely aggressive goal.

Is FIRST ready for prime time?
I don't think so. Robowars is non-stop action. It's violence and carnage, which basically
go over very well with TV audiences. It isn't blood&guts, so parents probably don't have
a problem with kids watching it. Its exciting. And while the FIRST competition may be
thrilling to US, the people that participate in it, the general public won't respond the
same way. Like some other people have said in this thread, people just don't understand
the game. It is hard for people that don't already know the game to understand it.
Explaining it to people is challenging, unless you have pictures or are standing inside an
actual arena. Once the game is popular enough, people won't care if its too complicated,
because they'll know about already. So I suppose what I'm trying to say, is that we just
have to wait.

One other thing: FIRST is supposed to ignite the minds of youngsters - mainly, the people
participating in the robotics competition. Its goal is not to be something you flip your
TV to on Sunday morning instead of football. They want kids to be doing it, rather than
just sitting in front of a TV watching it. Am I correct?

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Posted by Tom Vanderslice, Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 5/2/99 8:39 PM MST


In Reply to: What I think posted by Kyle Huang on 5/2/99 8:28 PM MST:



Very well put...

Tom
Team 275

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Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/2/99 10:40 PM MST


In Reply to: What I think posted by Kyle Huang on 5/2/99 8:28 PM MST:



I don't know, Kyle.
I don't think robotics competition in general can't be as 'popular' as professional sport.

They are entertainers and we are students.

BTW About Robowars. Are they continuing that this year? Are they still fighting?

kison

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Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 5/3/99 11:27 AM MST


In Reply to: What I think posted by Kyle Huang on 5/2/99 8:28 PM MST:



: One other thing: FIRST is supposed to ignite the minds of youngsters - mainly, the people
: participating in the robotics competition. Its goal is not to be something you flip your
: TV to on Sunday morning instead of football. They want kids to be doing it, rather than
: just sitting in front of a TV watching it. Am I correct?

I have to disagree with this point. Putting FIRST on TV on Saturday creates demand among the nation's youth to be a part of this. FIRST will never explode until there is a wide spread demand from people wishing to participate.

Hockey is a great example. Until recently, people in the south have never seen hockey so they never cared about it. Now that they are starting to see hockey, there is an increased demand for youth hockey leagues for both ice hockey and roller hockey.

In summary, widespread promotion is necessary to create the demand. Once peolpe see it, a lot of them will want to take part. This is necessary to create the large scale popularity. Only when this large scale popularity occurs will you see the impact on society that FIRST is hoping for.

-Chris

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Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/2/99 10:31 PM MST


In Reply to: Next year: Make the game understandable posted by Andy Baker on 5/1/99 11:18 PM MST:



Hmm...
I know.
i think so too.
Well, I thought so at first.

But then, I realized that most teams participate in the FIRST are really smart and etc.

That means that the teams are able to make robots that are very strong and multi-taskable (is that a word?).
If we make the game simpler and easier, almost all the robots in the competition is going to do well.
In that case, this 'luck' is going to be the factor. well, bigger than how big we want it to be, for sure.

I do know that some people might argue that 'understandable' doesn't always mean that game itself can be simpler.
But you know...I just don't want to see 400 same robots that can potentially score perfect rounds.
Look at this year's competition.
Despite its complexibility(is that a word?), you saw basically 5-6 designs on the field.
Only few had unique designs.
We had unique design...we had an arm..It looked really cool except it didn't do much. Our robot lookws so much different from other teams'.
RoboBears had a cool design.

I hope I am getting my meaning through.

kison

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Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/2/99 10:55 PM MST


In Reply to: Next year: Make the game understandable posted by Andy Baker on 5/1/99 11:18 PM MST:



Hehehe..
Ok. I will keep using the football analogy.

Football is popular here in the USA.
You gotta know this. Football is NOT 'familiar to the mass' in other contries. At least not where I come from.

It really is more complicated than the FIRST competition.

OK. What I am saying is that it's not the simplicity that will get people into this.
There has to be more promotion from the FIRST.

I say they start by hiring a new webmaster. Their homepage is horrible and contains informations that are only useful to the teams participating.
Their layout is horrible. Don't you think? kyle, go make one for them. hehe.

kison

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Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/3/99 1:54 AM MST


In Reply to: some more points.. posted by Sean Kim on 5/2/99 10:55 PM MST:



I totally agree. If you really spend some time thinking about it, the FIRST games are pretty easy to explain compared to most sports. There are many rules on building the robot but the rules of play really aren't all that complicated. All FIRST would need if televised, would be a quick little animation displaying how points are achieved. This could be shown after every other commercial break. Something along those lines. Also, if the announcers are good it'd be really easy to catch on (i.e. 'and TJ2 drags the puck back over the center line, recapturing the doubler!'). It’s really much less complicated than football, hockey, or any other pro-sport.

It's all about promotion.


-Daniel

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Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/3/99 4:42 PM MST


In Reply to: some more points.. posted by Sean Kim on 5/2/99 10:55 PM MST:



eh...
sorry.
I think I have made some upset by saying that the FIRST has a really bad site.

I was just joking around. I will make sure I won't make those kind of degenerating comments again.

kison