Hope of official Linux / Open Source software

[keen101]

There are many reasons why. If you'd like me to elaborate, then email me, and I'll give you a copy of my letter.

one is that it could be excluding low income schools who want to participate in FIRST, but don't have access to Windows computers.


...the WINE solution is not very elegant is it? It seems to me like you'd have to jump through a bunch a hoops to do it. Plus it's not officially supported by FIRST.

If anyone wants to be included in the letter, then I at least need you team number and location.

[EHaskins]

Originally Posted by keen101

one is that it could be excluding low income schools who want to participate in FIRST, but don't have access to Windows computers.

Do you have any examples of schools which can afford the hardware, but not Windows? That would be a good point, but I doubt there are any schools which don't have Windows computers. Teams having access to the computer is a different issue, but when you figure a cheap desktop is < $300 and registration is $6000 is that really a good argument?

-Eric

[keen101]

I really don't know if it's a good argument or not.

No, i don't have any examples, but it is possible, since we raise all our money from sponsors, and usually only scrape by with the minimum 6,000. It's possible these schools might only obtain the minimum amount.

I can try to give examples of low income schools from the Colorado area if people really want me to try. But, they wouldn't really be the example your looking for, since they probably have never heard of FIRST.

...then again... what about schools in other countries like Israel?

[keen101]

another advantage of an Open Source option would be that if Open Source it would be very easy to add native language support. For teams from Israel and such. I don't know if anyone would want this feature as I don't live in Israel, or have a hard time with English.

But, if they did... it would not be a problem.

[EHaskins]

I just looked through Sourceforge, and I found a Linux version of IFI Loader. I don't know if it works, but you might want to take a look.

I couldn't find a Linux compiler, but all the info you need to write your own is in the processor data sheet, sorry I don't have a link.

[AustinSchuh]

Originally Posted by EHaskins

I just looked through Sourceforge, and I found a Linux version of IFI Loader. I don't know if it works, but you might want to take a look.

It works like a champ. I have used it for 2 years, and love it. One of the mentors on our team was tempted to port it to Windows so he could use it to download to the robot because it works so well and is so simple. He didn't try because it is hard to use the serial port with Windows in a C program, but that is another problem.

[keen101]

Hmmm.... sounds interesting. I'll have to look into it.



also, many people may be sceptic as to if i even have a letter, so I will probably post my letter here when I'm finished and after I have sent it to FIRST. (assuming people want me to)

[jtdowney]

Originally Posted by EHaskins

I couldn't find a Linux compiler, but all the info you need to write your own is in the processor data sheet, sorry I don't have a link.

You can find the data sheets on the Microchip website. However that won't due them much good. Since telling someone to write a compiler because they have the data sheet is like giving them the blueprints to a jet and saying build it yourself. Very few people involved in FIRST have the experience or training to write a compiler.

[EHaskins]

Originally Posted by jtdowney

You can find the data sheets on the Microchip website. However that won't due them much good. Since telling someone to write a compiler because they have the data sheet is like giving them the blueprints to a jet and saying build it yourself. Very few people involved in FIRST have the experience or training to write a compiler.

I know that, but it would be possible if enough people got together. Unlikley, but possible.

[Greg Marra]

Guys, don't forget that this is the last year FIRST will be using the current controls system. The system employed next year may very well be entirely different, and any significant effort you put in now is likely to not transfer to that new controls system.

That being said, if you really want to do it, go for it!

[sparrowkc]

For people reading through this...

Just to clarify, mplab and the compiler that shipped last year (2007) both worked with wine, and with the loader mentioned above, you can develop on linux. There is also info out there on using makefiles and a native Linux IDE with c18 running in wine.

[keen101]

Here is basically a copy of the letter I sent to FIRST, for those who want to read it. Keep in mind that i tried to keep it as friendly, yet comprehensive as possible. I'm not sure if I succeeded in getting any good points across or not. Whether FIRST or anyone else decides to listen to the points I made or not really doesn't matter. At least I tried, and that's probably what counts.





Team Support
FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology)
200 Bedford Street
Manchester, NH 03101


To whom it may concern,




During the past three years I have had an awesome and life-changing experience gained through participating in the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC) program. I would have never dreamed that I would be able to learn about and work on robots and electronics throughout my high school years. For me it has been a experience that I know is currently found nowhere else in the world. Through FIRST, students are given an opportunity to work on real world engineering applications and designs while building leadership, public relations, and teamwork skills. Most are even able to learn from real world engineers and are able to collaborate with some of the greatest scientific minds of our time. I am proud to say that I have participated in the FIRST FRC program, and have been able to learn from it.

I would, however, like to help contribute back. I would like to make a suggestion that will hopefully influence and shape the FIRST of the future, by bringing to point something that has been bothering me lately. During the last two years I have also found a community that very closely resembles FIRST in some ways. That is the Linux and Open Source community. They have a philosophy that basically incorporates the idea that everyone should have an equal footing and an equal opportunity as everyone else. That every computer user should have the freedom to download, run, copy, distribute, study, share, change and improve their software; that every computer user should be able to use their software in the language of their choice; that every computer user should be given every opportunity to use software, even if they work under a disability. The two keywords that stand out to me are opportunity and freedom.

I have come to love the Linux community. For me it is a community that is about sharing and letting anyone join in; a community largely without bias and without prejudice. It's a community that helps foster my imagination much like FIRST has. Specifically I have joined the Ubuntu Linux community that goes by a philosophy that is captured in its name. Ubuntu is an African word meaning “humanity toward others”. I think that word captures the Linux community very well. In some way's it seems very similar to the “Gracious Professionalism” philosophy that FIRST tries so very hard to convey. I am very proud to participate in these two communities that share many philosophies and ideas.

I am writing for some specific reasons though. I am writing because there seems to be a disadvantage for FIRST members who do not use Microsoft Windows. There is no easy way to program FRC robots in alternative operating systems, or in alternative ways. There currently doesn't appear to be any Linux compatible software for those wishing to participate in the best way that they can. There are some ways to work around this, but they either take a great deal of work, or are legally controversial.



I feel that not having an option for Linux users stifles creativity and creates obstacles. It doesn't seem to fit with FIRST's Mission Statement that “FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs that build not only science and technology skills and interests, but also self-confidence, leadership, and life skills.” It doesn't seem to be easily accessible to non-Windows users. If it were, it would certainly promote the building of life skills, since Linux and other operating systems are highly used in the “real world”. There are also schools excluded from participating, simply because they have a lack of financial resources. In order for everyone to be able to participate, FIRST needs to aim for the lowest common denominator. Everyone CAN have Linux if they want. Not everyone can afford Windows.

I propose that FIRST create an open source alternative to the MPLB Compiler, and IFI Loader packages. It seems greatly unfair to force teams into using proprietary software. If there was an open source option, it could be made available to Windows, Mac, AND Linux users. There are many advantages to using an open source method. One of the best advantages is that FIRST really wouldn't have to maintain the software, but just get it started. The open source community would take on most of the work. Another great advantage of an open source option is that the software can be programmed easily for native Language support. This could effectively open up new areas to FIRST where few people speak English.

Maybe an open source alternative is not an option for FIRST. Maybe FIRST does not have the time or resources to pursue such an option. I'm not exactly sure where FIRST stands on this matter. I have been talking to many users on Chief Delphi, and have received feedback on their opinions. Some simply cannot see FIRST pursuing an open source option, for various reasons. Some propose that FIRST work with corporate sponsors, to seek a more open alternative to the MPLAB Compiler. And claim that all they really need is a “mostly complete compiler that needs to be 100% finished and Linux compatible.”

I sincerely hope that FIRST considers my suggestion for a Linux / Open Source option. I am even willing to be a Linux / Open Source contact for FIRST. I can help FIRST gain contact and support within the Linux community if needed. Feel free to email me at anytime. Keen101 [at] gmail [dot] com

May the future of FIRST be open to all.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by EHaskins

I know that, but it would be possible if enough people got together. Unlikley, but possible.

There's already an open-source compiler for the PIC C18 series called SDCC. The problem is that (unless I'm mistaken) the library format used by MCC18 is not compatible with SDCC, and you need to compile in the IFI Library to make a functional executable for the RC. Now, with the work Kevin Watson has done to port to C18 v3.0 you might be able to take advantage of the fact that the libraries are now in COFF format and maybe SDCC supports those directly or else it's probably not out of the question to write a converter that would convert the library to a SDCC-compatible one. However, as others have pointed out this very well could be the last year of dealing with PICs and C18 anyway so maybe it's not worth it.