An Exercise: Pros and Cons Of A Water Game

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by ervtech

well for a practice field, you can always use a pool... for the warmer states thats easy, but for the colder states there are plenty of indoor pools around

Being from Wisconsin, our team couldnt use an outdoor pool in the winter. It would also be difficult around here to find an indoor pool. Most times, the pools are in use, or the pool owners dont wand a "big electronic box" floating in their pool.
PRO: very interesting game, with a large emphasis on strategy.

CON: hard to find a test field
What would they do with all the water that splashes out of the field, and would they refill it??

[Kiwi]

Assuming that you somehow overcame the challenge of setting up the pool/field, if the competition was still two alliances of three bots, it seems like they'd interfere a lot with one another. Bots would have to have bumpers all over, because they'd all be travelling in three dimendions rather than moving on the plane of a non-aquatic field.
After two minutes of six bots propelling themselves around in a pool about the size of a regular field, there'd probably be waves to contend with -possibly enough to tip over a less stable floating bot.
The aquatic robots would probably work like either boats or submarines, and with a random combination of both on the field, the designers of the game would have to be careful with the rules. Would it be okay for an underwater robot to accidentally or intentionally capsize a floating one?
Maybe lifting the other bots out of the water would be the end game challenge.

Pros:
- we'd learn underwater electical design, in six weeks
-creative thinking to overcome the logistical challenge of finding a practice field
-everyone who's ever speculated about a water game would be able to say a giant 'i told you it would happen someday!'

Cons: all of the above... plus it would be dificult to enforce gracious professionalism on the field, and any damage to the bots during the game would be harder than it already is to repair.

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Thank you for your posts with your pros and cons!

I tend to try to make order out of chaos. When posts are made about a water game, the suggestion is made but there is usually nothing of any substance to follow that suggestion. It has happened enough times that I wanted to try to get a better grasp of it. My initial thinking is that one cannot move from the land robots to water robots just like that. Experience and opinions have been shared in this thread and I think they have been beneficial in helping us understand the similarities and the differences regarding a water game.

One area that has not been talked about and I wonder about is suppliers. Would that change? If yes, how would that impact? What are those pros and cons as we know FIRST now?

Yes, there are other programs as has been discussed in this thread. What I would like to understand is that if a water game can be done, I don't think it is just that simple. When one makes a suggestion, he/she should try to look at the whole picture as much as he/she can see and then research and learn more about it. I think it goes further than a venue change.

I am so glad you asked that! There would be a whole new range of suppliers. There are many ocean engineering companies, oil industry and deep sea exploration as well as many research based oceanography institutes.
Here is a link on the MATE website that shows just some of the companies involved in the marine technologies.
http://www.marinetech.org/rov_compet...8/sponsors.php
When we contact some of them they are very willing to help us out, they are not saturated. Even though there is MATE and NURC events out there, it is no where near what FIRST is.

Thanks for bringing this thread up! I think the biggest obstacle is people overcoming their comfort zone and paradigm of what FIRST is. We do underwater robotics and we don't have nearly the support and connection as some of the FIRST teams have with their sponsors, yet we still find a way because we are not afraid. The FIRST model works well outside FIRST if you just give it chance. Doing the impossible, with not enough time, resources or money. With this attitude, we can make FIRST work in any environment in any venue and not let naysayers stop us. There is a quote, I don't know who said it, but it is great. "Those who say it can't be done, should get out of the way of those that are doing it!"
Take care Jane!!

Are you thinking about Joining us in June for the NURC competition?
www.h2orobots.org

[,4lex S.]

Pros: A chance for a different experience than we are used to with FIRST (and really, what other robotics program would have multiple independently designed robots working together in alliances... underwater)

Cons: My team has already decided any water game should be solved with a bottom crawling sinking robot... with wheels.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by ervtech

well for a practice field, you can always use a pool... for the warmer states thats easy, but for the colder states there are plenty of indoor pools around

It isn't that easy, even in Southern California. Pools big enough to use as a test area tend to be in public gyms and the like--not exactly optimal placement.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by falconmaster

Are you thinking about Joining us in June for the NURC competition?

Fredi -

Honestly, I had not thought about it but now that you mention it - I will.
If I can not make it out this year, I will definitely mark my calendar for next. It would be great to see everything involved and learn about it.

Thank you for providing insight and information in this thread.
Jane

[s_forbes]

Originally Posted by EricH

It isn't that easy, even in Southern California. Pools big enough to use as a test area tend to be in public gyms and the like--not exactly optimal placement.

You don't necessarily need one that big. The NERDS tested their bot in the neighbors tiny pool which was barely eight feet deep in the middle.

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Fredi -

Honestly, I had not thought about it but now that you mention it - I will.
If I can not make it out this year, I will definitely mark my calendar for next. It would be great to see everything involved and learn about it.

Thank you for providing insight and information in this thread.
Jane

We have video archived all of last years missions and we will do so again this year.
http://www.h2orobots.org/teammissionvideos.htm
We will be expecting you the following year!
The video broadcasts will also be live via the web. I will send you a reminder when it gets close.

We have technical manuals for you to see too
http://www.h2orobots.org/samplereports.htm
and
http://www.h2orobots.org/teamtechreports.htm

[falconmaster]

Here is the itunes site at ASU that has archived the missions from last year. The two best to see are the NERDS and Falcon Robotics, they had the best lighting. Other teams are on a learning curve and will be there this year much improved.
http://tinyurl.com/26odq3
The mission was done in total darkness to make it harder. Daylight was too easy. We also learned how to make it more spectator friendly, this year props will be lighted up! See the 2008 site
at www.h2orobots.org

[EricH]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

You don't necessarily need one that big. The NERDS tested their bot in the neighbors tiny pool which was barely eight feet deep in the middle.

I can think of ONE pool deeper than six feet nearby--and somehow I don't think the city that owns it would like us using it. Even a six-footer is difficult to come by.

[MrForbes]

We did go to the city pool a couple times to test the robot in their diving pool, just asked the manager for permission and it wasn't a big deal to go around dinner time when the diving pool was closed, but the main pool was open for a special excersize event (or something like that).

They seemed eager to help out the robotics team!

[MiniNerd24]

Originally Posted by Laaba 80

Being from Wisconsin, our team couldnt use an outdoor pool in the winter. It would also be difficult around here to find an indoor pool. Most times, the pools are in use, or the pool owners dont wand a "big electronic box" floating in their pool.
PRO: very interesting game, with a large emphasis on strategy.

CON: hard to find a test field
What would they do with all the water that splashes out of the field, and would they refill it??

Well, Laaba I think you're right about the "big electronic box" bit. I don't think anyone would. As for the pool refilling technique, they'd probably go Jacuzzi style, with jets coming out of the sides and bottom.

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Assuming that you somehow overcame the challenge of setting up the pool/field, if the competition was still two alliances of three bots, it seems like they'd interfere a lot with one another. Bots would have to have bumpers all over, because they'd all be travelling in three dimendions rather than moving on the plane of a non-aquatic field.
After two minutes of six bots propelling themselves around in a pool about the size of a regular field, there'd probably be waves to contend with -possibly enough to tip over a less stable floating bot.
The aquatic robots would probably work like either boats or submarines, and with a random combination of both on the field, the designers of the game would have to be careful with the rules. Would it be okay for an underwater robot to accidentally or intentionally capsize a floating one?
Maybe lifting the other bots out of the water would be the end game challenge.

Pros:
- we'd learn underwater electical design, in six weeks
-creative thinking to overcome the logistical challenge of finding a practice field
-everyone who's ever speculated about a water game would be able to say a giant 'i told you it would happen someday!'

Cons: all of the above... plus it would be dificult to enforce gracious professionalism on the field, and any damage to the bots during the game would be harder than it already is to repair.

Yeah, Kiwi. The damage factor could be make or break for teams. After all, if one ungrounded bot with a lose wire comes in contact with water. ZAP, and all of the teams are finished.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by MiniNerd24

After all, if one ungrounded bot with a lose wire comes in contact with water. ZAP, and all of the teams are finished.

I don't understand how this would happen, could you please explain it further?

[MiniNerd24]

Well, if the water comes in contact with a loose electrical connection (and my understanding of 'water conducts electricity' is correct) then the whole pool would become momentarily charged and if the other robots come into contact with the charged water (and they aren't insulated) they would be caught in a power surge which (to my understanding) would cause the circuits to overload and become unresponsive. Wouldn't it?
Can anyone tell me if this theory is correct?

[MrForbes]

I think you might be making an unstated assumption, which is that the robots are plugged into a wall outlet. That is not the case...the robots are powered by batteries.