Physical matches

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Posted by Adam Hathaway.

Student on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.

Posted on 7/12/99 2:25 PM MST



I thought that the level of pushing and fighting among teams in Rumble made for more exciting matches. Thats the kind of excitment that will get more bystanders and average people involved in watching a FIRST event. Should FIRST go back to allowing teams to tip over others intentionally, or maybe just loosen up on the rules? Any ideas?

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Posted by Kate.

Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.

Posted on 7/12/99 2:53 PM MST


In Reply to: Physical matches posted by Adam Hathaway on 7/12/99 2:25 PM MST:



I personally like the physical matches better.. It makes it a lot more exciting to watch.. Granted I wouldn't be all too happy if it happened to my team.. But it does make it more exciting.. I mean, even at kickoff.. Dean said make your robots robust as they may fall.. That was in reference to falling off the puck.. Is there really that much of a difference between falling (or getting knocked) off the puck?? I think it'd be worse getting knocked off the puck as compared to getting tipped over away from the puck.. There isn't the 5inch drop away from the puck.. I think that tipping should have been allowed this year with falling off the puck option.. There's my thoughts on that..

-KATE-

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Posted by Mike Kulibaba.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.

Posted on 7/13/99 4:53 PM MST


In Reply to: Physical matches posted by Adam Hathaway on 7/12/99 2:25 PM MST:



: I thought that the level of pushing and fighting among teams in Rumble made for more exciting matches. Thats the kind of excitment that will get more bystanders and average people involved in watching a FIRST event. Should FIRST go back to allowing teams to tip over others intentionally, or maybe just loosen up on the rules? Any ideas?

I think pushing and tipping is a part of the competition, but it also makes for more broken robots. Just ask anyone who was at the 1997 Rumble at the Rock and saw TJ² get obliterated by Naval Undersea because they used a little tipping mechanism. This year in the quarterfinals, Ethicon and Nasa Ames Gunn High school played two teams( I can't exactly remember who they were) In the second match, Gunn purposely knocked over a robot that was clearing not trying to get on the puck and they definately had there floppies over 8 feet and I think the refs made the right call by calling a DQ because just going out to knock over a robot shouldn't be what this competition is about. Back in 1997 when my team's Robot got knocked over and totally smashed in half(and I mean right in half) I think it took away from the competition( I also might be a little biased cause it was my team that got toppled. But you do bring up a good point about people want to see Robot's banging and pushing and falling. I just think there has to be a happy medium. And I think this competition might have been close to a happy medium cause you got the tipping and pushing but it stayed away from the all out mayhem that could of taken place. Thanks For a great year

Mike Kulibaba Team 88 TJ²
'Kuli'

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Posted by Daniel.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 7/13/99 9:11 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Physical matches posted by Mike Kulibaba on 7/13/99 4:53 PM MST:



Mike,

I agree with you. Tipping is harsh. However I need to clear GRT's name on this one. We did not tip on purpose. We were trying to backdrive their elevator motors, which wasn’t beyond reason as we have two van door motors at a 6:1 gearing driving that puppy. In fact, we had been holding the robot down until the ref told us to back off. We didn’t understand, but we did what we were told, and when we tried to come back down they were already most of the way up. All we did was push down on that arm. Unfortunately, when we were backing off, a bolt got caught and we tipped them over. I’m not disputing the call, cuz I’m content with the fact that people saw our robot and hopefully think of GRT when talking about some of the “teams to beat”.

GRT would never purposefully break another robot. We know what it feels like; we had the same thing happen to us in 1997. I know what it’s like to see our pride and joy get lifted 3 feet into the air and dropped on it's head. Repeatedly. I was having a heart attack watching it! But it was within the rules, so we went home and got ready to build a stronger robot. In 1998 our robot was dropped off a truck when we were shipping it off. We had to fix a bunch of bent stuff and send it off again. That was another eye opener. This year we could have dropped that sucker off a truck and it would barely dent.

Accidents happen. Build your robot to take them. If GRT ever broke a robot, we would help them fix it. I promise, because that’s not our goal. We just play the game. We go right up to the edge of the rules, because common sense is enough to make us realize that nothing conservative ever wins.

Now for my own opinion (which has nothing to do with the way GRT plays the game):

I myself have never been an advocate of the way FIRST went about their anti-tipping rule. FIRST says in rule V5 that “strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of opponents' robots are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition and will not be allowed.” First of all, no “rule” should be based on someone’s intent, as intent can’t be accurately evaluated by anyone other than those who acted on that intent. There must be a better way to limit tipping. In fact, I was not a fan of the way a robot on the puck can raise their basket and suddenly become invulnerable anyway. Why should putting yourself in a compromising position make you less vulnerable? I think the rules limited us in a way we shouldn’t have been limited. I agree with Jeff from TKO about how we could easily go overboard, but I feel there should be a slightly more liberal in-between. Teams like 16 who designed their robot to grab a pole while on the puck had the right idea. There are ways to defend against defensive tipping...if only we could limit tipping to defense. I’m sure there’s a way.

-Daniel

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Posted by Mike King.

Other on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater Raynham and Johnson & Johnson Professional.

Posted on 7/13/99 9:56 PM MST


In Reply to: More info, and a little oppinion of my own posted by Daniel on 7/13/99 9:11 PM MST:



I agree with some of your points. In fact, if you had anazlyed our stragiy, we would clamp onto the pole, raise basket, then raise robot. When out robot is lifted off the ground, it becomes very untippable. (Remember the 1997 incident that Mike mentioned, we learned from that)

Although i doubt you ever saw it, we had full abiltiy to get on top of the puck. We just never did, because we would go for floppies until the last 30 seconds, and by that time it's very hard to push your way onto the puck. But when were on the puck, we also clamped onto the pole to stablize ourselves.

Now back to my point for writing this message, (the preceding was a tangent, we all love explaining our robot.)

The comment was made in 1998, and I'm going to attribute it to Joe Johnson, but I do not recall who said it excatly, and the exact wording, but you'll get the jist.

'If the competition comes down to how can tip who first, you'd better watch out. You'd see teams like Beatty, Chief Delphi, and TJ² launching the robots into the stands.'

It struck me funny at the time. Then it made me think about that engineer who was involved in the grill lighting contest with Liquid Oxygen.


I'm including a link to that engineers home page

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Posted by Daniel.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 7/13/99 10:24 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: More info, and a little oppinion of my own posted by Mike King on 7/13/99 9:56 PM MST:



I'm not saying we should blow each other up =)

I'm just saying a little defensive tipping should be okay. For example, tipping a robot that doesn't have any floppies raised should be illegal because it could be done just as easily by holding down their basket (something GRT did in almost all of it's rounds). However, tipping a robot that is raised, significantly alters that robot's score. Teams would be encouraged to build with a lower center of gravity and certain precautions such as grabbing a pole or extending anti-tipping thingies. I expect many will disagree with this, but I just feel that robots shouldn't be encouraged to make themselves vaulnerable like they were this year. Seriously, some of those lifts were just funny. Baskets were waving in the wind. Teams shouldn't be able to get away with that. Teams should build something they can be proud of; not something that looks like it was built by high school students.

-Daniel

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Posted by Fran .

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 7/14/99 5:46 AM MST


In Reply to: no nukes posted by Daniel on 7/13/99 10:24 PM MST:



: I always thought the robots were supposed to be built by the students with guidance from engineers....obviously ours is. It is just as obvious that many robots have had the expertise of their engineers. I like our method of the kids designing and building the robot but it will probably keep us from learning from the year before. We always build from scratch which has its limitations and we will probably always be looking for help. Hopefully we will find the right set of engineers who will become involved enough to attend outside events as we see on so many teams.

I found Rumble to be more fun than the regionals but that comes from see more competitions. The more you do and see the more you try....we all returned from regionals with a certain amount of awe ....it was amazing what some teams thought to do and that knowledge alone changed how everyone played the next time. Part of the physical play was acheived because you could go repair your robot and not worry about shipping it right to nationals without being able to repair until you arrived 3 days before competing......surely teams were more cautious at regionals........nothing to worry about at Rumble.

On another thought, thank you for all your assistance and did your robot make it back home or is it becoming a world traveler?


Fran
Team 166



I'm not saying we should blow each other up =)

: I'm just saying a little defensive tipping should be okay. For example, tipping a robot that doesn't have any floppies raised should be illegal because it could be done just as easily by holding down their basket (something GRT did in almost all of it's rounds). However, tipping a robot that is raised, significantly alters that robot's score. Teams would be encouraged to build with a lower center of gravity and certain precautions such as grabbing a pole or extending anti-tipping thingies. I expect many will disagree with this, but I just feel that robots shouldn't be encouraged to make themselves vaulnerable like they were this year. Seriously, some of those lifts were just funny. Baskets were waving in the wind. Teams shouldn't be able to get away with that. Teams should build something they can be proud of; not something that looks like it was built by high school students.

: -Daniel

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Posted by Daniel.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 7/14/99 11:47 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: they are built by students posted by Fran on 7/14/99 5:46 AM MST:



Having kids build your robot will keep you from learning from the year before? That is one thing I've got to disagree with. My best guess is you're basing this on the fact that students graduate. I suppose then it has some truth to it. However, there are non-senior members on your team so what about them? Can't they learn from their mistakes?

You were at rumble. What did we learn in the pits?

1) You don't want to use zipties to hold down your drill motors
2) You will want to carry a copy of your program on a floppy when you go to competitions
3) You may want to give your drivers a little more practice before you go to a competition (he did a great job under the circumstances, but I'm sure he would have liked a little more practice)
4) Watch the torque rating on the drill and make sure it doesn't leave the highest setting (there are ways to make it immobile too, so think about that)

I'm sure there are a bunch of people to whom these things look VERY familiar. That's because we've ALL done it. And now we do something differently and we have our own set of mistakes to learn from. So start with these and any other things I missed, and fix them for next year. I’d love to be able to drop by your pits next year in florida, and see your beautiful new motor mounts... =)

By the way, it was our pleasure to help you guys out in Plymouth. It’s something we would want others to do for us, if in need. So you’d better watch out in Florida next year. You never know what might happen. Oh and our robot should be here in about two weeks so I wont know if it decides to go on vacation until later.

Thanks for the t-shirt... =)
-Daniel

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Posted by Fran .

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 7/15/99 10:48 AM MST


In Reply to: smart students posted by Daniel on 7/14/99 11:47 AM MST:



: I didn't really mean we don't learn but it sounds like some teams make major changes in designs based on experiences.......anyway I agree our driver did super when he thought he was only coming to watch and I'm sure the experience will carry over in his contributions to the team this year. We certainly went to Rumble with just our spirits and I hope our driver learned alot in the pits that day.....thank you for your list, I will print it and share it with the team since I'm technically challenged and had no idea what you guys were doing! But I am very good at locating help or items or creatively coming up with ideas to run this program and I have a car that can carry the robot.
Ther's an idea for a new challenge next year: Time the engineers/advisors on how long it takes to load a car with robots/supplies (no crates) and leave room for people........I felt like I was putting together a puzzle while loading ours. Well hopefully I will get to see you in the pits next year....my first trip ever to Disney(not like my well traveled daughter) and who knows maybe we will assist some one instead of dialing 911.

Fran


Having kids build your robot will keep you from learning from the year before? That is one thing I've got to disagree with. My best guess is you're basing this on the fact that students graduate. I suppose then it has some truth to it. However, there are non-senior members on your team so what about them? Can't they learn from their mistakes?

: You were at rumble. What did we learn in the pits?

: 1) You don't want to use zipties to hold down your drill motors
: 2) You will want to carry a copy of your program on a floppy when you go to competitions
: 3) You may want to give your drivers a little more practice before you go to a competition (he did a great job under the circumstances, but I'm sure he would have liked a little more practice)
: 4) Watch the torque rating on the drill and make sure it doesn't leave the highest setting (there are ways to make it immobile too, so think about that)

: I'm sure there are a bunch of people to whom these things look VERY familiar. That's because we've ALL done it. And now we do something differently and we have our own set of mistakes to learn from. So start with these and any other things I missed, and fix them for next year. I’d love to be able to drop by your pits next year in florida, and see your beautiful new motor mounts... =)

: By the way, it was our pleasure to help you guys out in Plymouth. It’s something we would want others to do for us, if in need. So you’d better watch out in Florida next year. You never know what might happen. Oh and our robot should be here in about two weeks so I wont know if it decides to go on vacation until later.

: Thanks for the t-shirt... =)
: -Daniel

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Posted by Mike King.

Other on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater Raynham and Johnson & Johnson Professional.

Posted on 7/18/99 7:05 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: changes posted by Fran on 7/15/99 10:48 AM MST:



: : I didn't really mean we don't learn but it sounds like some teams make major changes in designs based on experiences.......anyway I agree our driver did super when he thought he was only coming to watch and I'm sure the experience will carry over in his contributions to the team this year. We certainly went to Rumble with just our spirits and I hope our driver learned alot in the pits that day.....thank you for your list, I will print it and share it with the team since I'm technically challenged and had no idea what you guys were doing! But I am very good at locating help or items or creatively coming up with ideas to run this program and I have a car that can carry the robot.
: Ther's an idea for a new challenge next year: Time the engineers/advisors on how long it takes to load a car with robots/supplies (no crates) and leave room for people........I felt like I was putting together a puzzle while loading ours. Well hopefully I will get to see you in the pits next year....my first trip ever to Disney(not like my well traveled daughter) and who knows maybe we will assist some one instead of dialing 911.

: Fran


You might try something our team did.

We took a used trailer, reconditioned and rebuilt it, and now it's our team's travel trailer.

Maybe you saw it at rumble. The Huge black/blue trailer with the TJ² logo painted on the side. It was half way down the parking lot on the right hand side. (standing in the pits looking at the parking lot)

It's large enough to take our robot, all our tools, miscellanious stuff, and it has a small workbench built in.

Later

Mike

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Posted by Fran .

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 7/19/99 5:15 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: changes posted by Mike King on 7/18/99 7:05 PM MST:



: : :Who could miss such an incredible trailer......my 9 year old spotted it as we entered the parking lot
Hopefully one day we will be a more organized and have a more supported team by students as well
as engineers. Right now we take the firstaholics and hope for the best. I really enjoy the challenge of fitting it all
into my car but I'm sure I might not always be available but since I'm the 'arranger' , I will probably set up an alternative.
Thank you for a great suggestion

Fran



I didn't really mean we don't learn but it sounds like some teams make major changes in designs based on experiences.......anyway I agree our driver did super when he thought he was only coming to watch and I'm sure the experience will carry over in his contributions to the team this year. We certainly went to Rumble with just our spirits and I hope our driver learned alot in the pits that day.....thank you for your list, I will print it and share it with the team since I'm technically challenged and had no idea what you guys were doing! But I am very good at locating help or items or creatively coming up with ideas to run this program and I have a car that can carry the robot.
: : Ther's an idea for a new challenge next year: Time the engineers/advisors on how long it takes to load a car with robots/supplies (no crates) and leave room for people........I felt like I was putting together a puzzle while loading ours. Well hopefully I will get to see you in the pits next year....my first trip ever to Disney(not like my well traveled daughter) and who knows maybe we will assist some one instead of dialing 911.

: : Fran

:
: You might try something our team did.

: We took a used trailer, reconditioned and rebuilt it, and now it's our team's travel trailer.

: Maybe you saw it at rumble. The Huge black/blue trailer with the TJ² logo painted on the side. It was half way down the parking lot on the right hand side. (standing in the pits looking at the parking lot)

: It's large enough to take our robot, all our tools, miscellanious stuff, and it has a small workbench built in.

: Later

: Mike

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Posted by Mike King.

Other on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater Raynham and Johnson & Johnson Professional.

Posted on 7/22/99 5:22 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: thanks posted by Fran on 7/19/99 5:15 AM MST:



: : : :Who could miss such an incredible trailer......my 9 year old spotted it as we entered the parking lot
: Hopefully one day we will be a more organized and have a more supported team by students as well
: as engineers. Right now we take the firstaholics and hope for the best. I really enjoy the challenge of fitting it all
: into my car but I'm sure I might not always be available but since I'm the 'arranger' , I will probably set up an alternative.
: Thank you for a great suggestion

: Fran

Our trailer was 90% student built. (The wiring was done by the electronics teacher. GO Chev!)

and the paint job was done by students and our very talented art teacher, Mr Phanef!

Later

Mike King

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Posted by Raul.

Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 7/14/99 10:54 AM MST


In Reply to: More info, and a little oppinion of my own posted by Daniel on 7/13/99 9:11 PM MST:



Daniel,

In response to your statement: 'In fact, I was not a fan of the way a robot on the puck can raise their basket and suddenly become invulnerable anyway.'

Woodie clearly stated, and even acted it out with people at each competition, that it was OK to push, pull or drag a robot that is on or trying to get on the puck. And, if as a result of the pushing or pulling the robot happens to tip over, that is legal. However, it is when a robot is off in a corner, 'not engaging the puck', that you are not allowed to cause it to tip when it raises it's floppies.

I asked the refs (who did an excellent job throughtout the competition) to verify these rules for me when the competition started to see if they were using the same criteria as the FIRST refs. They also comfirmed that it was OK to hold down someone from raising the floppies as long as they wanted as long as they were not also getting pinned against a border of the field. That is why you were asked to back off - you were holding down the basket but were also pinning no. 178 against the border right in front of the human player.

Raul

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Posted by Daniel.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 7/14/99 12:03 PM MST


In Reply to: Rules clarification. posted by Raul on 7/14/99 10:54 AM MST:



Don't worry, I'm not disputing the call...you guys won that round.

I'm just saying that the theory of a robot in the corner becoming more secure by raising it center of gravity way up high is flawed. A robot should have to take certain precautions to make that a less fragile position. Perhaps FIRST should have made it possible to latch on to the field border. Then they wouldn't have had to outlaw tipping. All I'm saying is that there are ways to allow robots to stay upright on their own merit, instead of giving them a 'get out of jail free' card. You know what I mean?

So don't worry about that match. I talked to the refs too. You guys were great opponents in those rounds and I've got to say, those were a few of the most tense moments I've ever experienced. You guys were great.

See you next year!
-Daniel

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 7/16/99 5:43 PM MST


In Reply to: Rules clarification. posted by Raul on 7/14/99 10:54 AM MST:



On the topic of when is tipping allowed vs what is a team allowed to do to prevent an opponent from lifting:

What did folks think of team 177's strategy?

It seemed to me that they came very close to crossing the tipping line with their aggressive floppy snatching and basket holding. If just holding down were the purpose, how come some may opponent robots ended up on their sides?

For those who were not there, the crowd actually booed at one point.

By the way, 3D showed a lot of class in the elimination tourney when they accidentally tipped a robot that was FULL of floppies and then went BACK and righted them again. 3D went on to lose the match and leave the tourney as a result. Honorable.

Joe J.