A strategy note: Tipped robots

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Ogre

To play devil's advocate, if I'm on the opposing alliance, that's one less robot I now have to worry about scoring points and moving their ball around.

The tipped over robot is blocking traffic for everyone, but scoring less for only their alliance. Why would I want to pick them up?

Everyone scores less because it blocks so much of the field. If they're already in the lead... If they have a trackball in grasp, it's even worse (up to 100% of the track blocked until somebody clears part of it.)

Think of it this way: there's an accident on an interstate that takes up two lanes. (Some have six each direction in SoCal.) EVERY lane comes to a halt/slow crawl as everyone merges into the remaining lanes. Once you're clear/the accident is removed, traffic speeds up.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by EricH

Everyone scores less because it blocks so much of the field. If they're already in the lead... If they have a trackball in grasp, it's even worse (up to 100% of the track blocked until somebody clears part of it.)

Think of it this way: there's an accident on an interstate that takes up two lanes. (Some have six each direction in SoCal.) EVERY lane comes to a halt/slow crawl as everyone merges into the remaining lanes. Once you're clear/the accident is removed, traffic speeds up.

I understand how traffic would slow down. The point is that it would slow down for everyone. While it may put everyone at a disadvantage, it does not do your alliance ay more harm than the other.

If anything, it gives you an advantage because now you are earning 2 more points per lap and you have more robots moving the ball around.
Even better is if their robot tips over in their home stretch. Now, if one of their teams stops and tries to put the ball on the overpass, he is likely going to be impeding traffic. Therefore I can bump him and he must get out of my way, i.e. he won't be able to put the ball up.

I see an opposing tipped robot as a rather big advantage.

On a somewhat related note, would it be considered GP to push a tipped robot in front of the opposing alliances overpass? It would certainly give you the advantage I mentioned above, but what's to keep that robot from getting pushed around all match as teams try to position it on the field?

[Dan Petrovic]

The rules have been (I'm not sure about this year) if a robot is tipped, all "out of bumper zone" contact is ignored. That way someone can just move their robot out of the way.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by InfernoX14

The rules have been (I'm not sure about this year) if a robot is tipped, all "out of bumper zone" contact is ignored. That way someone can just move their robot out of the way.

Or set them on their wheels.

[shinigami473]

This is all if one robot tips over, but what if two robots of tip over and block the entire lane for everyone. this is very unlikely to happen but still a possibility.

Personally I was kind of disappointed with the rules this year, they could have been better.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by shinigami473

This is all if one robot tips over, but what if two robots of tip over and block the entire lane for everyone. this is very unlikely to happen but still a possibility.

Personally I was kind of disappointed with the rules this year, they could have been better.

Thank you for volunteering to write the rules next year. I am sure that you will do a much better job.

-dave

[ay2b]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Thank you for volunteering to write the rules next year.

Ooh, can I volunteer too? I'd love to be on the GDC.

(Yes, I know this was a sarcastic response to an insulting comment, but in seriousness, I do think it would be awesome to be a part of the GDC.)


As for the question at hand, I have seen a few past competitions where one robot has tipped and then another (both alliance and opponent) have picked up the tipped robot. I've also seen times when one robot tried to pick up a tipped robot, and ended up failing - either tipping themselves or getting tangled - and this is certainly more common.

For the most part, robots are not designed to pick up other robots, and so attempting to do so will take a lot of time and not succeed. If it is an alliance member which is tipped, then the coaches on that alliance need to make a decision about what to do - push the robot out of the way, attempt to pick it upright, or leave it as-is. If it is an opponent which is tipped, then, in my opinion, the gracious thing to do is to help them, if possible. It is certainly not gracious to "beet them while they're down". It is a very tough call, however, to determine "will my actions attempting to help this other robot be more likely to help them or to damage them?" The safe thing to do, from the perspective of not damaging the other robot, and to avoid the possibility of getting penalties, is probably to ignore them. I would expect "ignoring" and "gently pushing out of the way - aligning them with the flow of traffic" to be the two most common, and probably best, solutions.

As for the likelihood of robots tipping - there certainly will be some that tip, as there are every year. Compare this to the 2005 game, Triple Play. This year we are picking up an 8-10 pound ball roughly 8 feet (putting the center of the 40" ball at 8'2" puts the bottom at 6'6", the height of the overpass). In 2005, the tetras weight around 15 pounds and were lifted 12-14 feet. That's more weight at a higher elevation. How often did the 2005 robots tip? Certainly they tipped over some, but not THAT often.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by ay2b

As for the likelihood of robots tipping - there certainly will be some that tip, as there are every year. Compare this to the 2005 game, Triple Play. This year we are picking up an 8-10 pound ball roughly 8 feet (putting the center of the 40" ball at 8'2" puts the bottom at 6'6", the height of the overpass). In 2005, the tetras weight around 15 pounds and were lifted 12-14 feet. That's more weight at a higher elevation. How often did the 2005 robots tip? Certainly they tipped over some, but not THAT often.

This isn't meant as a nitpick, but more to offer some perspective. Tetras weighed eight pounds each, not fifteen. Add in the fact that teams will be moving a lot faster because precision is not as important now as in 2005, and I expect that you'll see even more tipped bots than we did then.

[Faith]

Tipped robots are annoying to everyone, although they may or may not benefit your alliance.

BUT... Unless you are in an elimination match, or a REALLY REALLY intense/close match that you are completely set on trying to win as though it was the finals, if you have the ability to pick up another robot, I would do it.
For starters - more scoring will happen afterwards
- it is a really nice thing to do
- the team will be happy that you saved their robot, 6 weeks of work, from possible destruction, and you will probably make new friends always good to have lots of fun
- what teams out there, scouting around, could possibly overlook a team that helped another team up? It means you aren't in it just for the win, but for the experience. It means you're probably a fun team to work with. It means your robot is pretty awesome, because it has the ability to right an 120lb tipped robot.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Plooshiska

the team will be happy that you saved their robot, 6 weeks of work, from possible destruction

On the other hand, if somebody tried to pick up my robot without asking permission and managed to damage it more in the process, I would expect them to be DQed pursuant to <G37c>. I appreciate the thought and the opportunity to rejoin the match, but you have to expect to catch flak if something goes wrong.

[Travis Hoffman]

So if a tipped robot blocks all passage, and an opponent bumps them gently to pass, does the tipped bot get penalized for failing to yield within six seconds?

Talk about adding insult to injury....

P.S. I do not believe the refs would ever call it this way. The wording of the rules <G38>, <G40>, and <G41> *almost* makes the above situation plausible, though.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

I do not believe the refs would ever call it this way.

The 72" rule was called when you were tipped last year. The offsides rule was called even if you were tipped in 2006. I fully expect that a robot that falls down and blocks off the lane will potentially be flagged for both the 80" rule and the impeding traffic rule, unless there is an update that said something to the contrary. But yes, insult to injury.

Originally Posted by Otaku

So just help out a fellow FIRSTer if you see 'em tipped.

I still can't help but think that we'd all be more than a little upset if a well-meaning opponent gutted our pneumatics or wiring by sticking their gripper into our robot. It may seem like the graciously professional thing to do, but manipulating a robot that you are not familiar with is potentially very dangerous, and I wouldn't hesitate to flag a team that caused damage by doing so.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by jgannon

The 72" rule was called when you were tipped last year. The offsides rule was called even if you were tipped in 2006. I fully expect that a robot that falls down and blocks off the lane will potentially be flagged for both the 80" rule and the impeding traffic rule, unless there is an update that said something to the contrary. But yes, insult to injury.

In 2006, if you hit the E-Stop button before you were considered off-sides, you would not have been given a penalty and your alliance would not have been required to have a backbot.

[JohnC]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Thank you for volunteering to write the rules next year. I am sure that you will do a much better job.

-dave

I literally just lol'd. Personally, I like this game because it's "all up in our (collective) grill" in terms of departure from what we've come to expect. But that's off topic.

Fortunately, I think one of the popular design options will have a ball scooping mechanism or a fork-lift type thing that just might be powerful enough to get a robot upright.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Ogre

On a somewhat related note, would it be considered GP to push a tipped robot in front of the opposing alliances overpass? It would certainly give you the advantage I mentioned above, but what's to keep that robot from getting pushed around all match as teams try to position it on the field?

No. If it were, I'd push it in front of YOUR overpass and then get behind it so you can't move it. Now who gets in trouble?

I saw a case where a tipped robot was pushed in front of a ball corral (2004). A penalty was assessed. (The robot was intentionally tipped, but it took the second tip--so it couldn't get up--and the shoving into the chute to draw the penalty.)