A strategy note: Tipped robots

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by shinigami473

This is all if one robot tips over, but what if two robots of tip over and block the entire lane for everyone. this is very unlikely to happen but still a possibility.

Personally I was kind of disappointed with the rules this year, they could have been better.

Thank you for volunteering to write the rules next year. I am sure that you will do a much better job.

-dave

[GaryVoshol]

To add insult to injury, there's probably a penalty for being over 80".

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by EricH

(Oh, yeah, and if you tip, please compress as much as possible.)

Even if you think it benefits your alliance because you're blocking the other one... Eric is right. Not only do you reduce the chances of your alliance scoring, but you also run the risk of getting your robot destroyed.

[MDodge27]

To make it simple. Make a sturdy robot so it doesn't tip.

[BRAVESaj25bd8]

I think that discussing whether a tipped robot can be an advantage/disadvantage for alliances is probably not in the overall spirit of FIRST. It lets people think about the strategy of possibly tipping a robot which is DEFINITELY not in the spirit of FIRST.

In the past, referees generally do allow a robot to be moved out of the way if it has been tipped over. However, before you move another team's robot, imagine if your robot was the one being pushed around after falling over. It probably would not feel very good to see your 6 weeks of hard work being smeared on the carpet just because another team wanted to win THAT badly.

So try to remember that even though you might not have the capability to help another robot up, you should do your best to try to avoid tipped robots (nobody wants their hard work being tossed around).

-my $0.02

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

To add insult to injury, there's probably a penalty for being over 80".

Much like the 72" rule in 2007, I fully expect that if you tip over when you're over 80" tall, you'll be flagged. I also expect that this will be a huge deal at early regionals... scores will be low, and tipped robots will be numerous.

[ay2b]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Thank you for volunteering to write the rules next year.

Ooh, can I volunteer too? I'd love to be on the GDC.

(Yes, I know this was a sarcastic response to an insulting comment, but in seriousness, I do think it would be awesome to be a part of the GDC.)


As for the question at hand, I have seen a few past competitions where one robot has tipped and then another (both alliance and opponent) have picked up the tipped robot. I've also seen times when one robot tried to pick up a tipped robot, and ended up failing - either tipping themselves or getting tangled - and this is certainly more common.

For the most part, robots are not designed to pick up other robots, and so attempting to do so will take a lot of time and not succeed. If it is an alliance member which is tipped, then the coaches on that alliance need to make a decision about what to do - push the robot out of the way, attempt to pick it upright, or leave it as-is. If it is an opponent which is tipped, then, in my opinion, the gracious thing to do is to help them, if possible. It is certainly not gracious to "beet them while they're down". It is a very tough call, however, to determine "will my actions attempting to help this other robot be more likely to help them or to damage them?" The safe thing to do, from the perspective of not damaging the other robot, and to avoid the possibility of getting penalties, is probably to ignore them. I would expect "ignoring" and "gently pushing out of the way - aligning them with the flow of traffic" to be the two most common, and probably best, solutions.

As for the likelihood of robots tipping - there certainly will be some that tip, as there are every year. Compare this to the 2005 game, Triple Play. This year we are picking up an 8-10 pound ball roughly 8 feet (putting the center of the 40" ball at 8'2" puts the bottom at 6'6", the height of the overpass). In 2005, the tetras weight around 15 pounds and were lifted 12-14 feet. That's more weight at a higher elevation. How often did the 2005 robots tip? Certainly they tipped over some, but not THAT often.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by ay2b

As for the likelihood of robots tipping - there certainly will be some that tip, as there are every year. Compare this to the 2005 game, Triple Play. This year we are picking up an 8-10 pound ball roughly 8 feet (putting the center of the 40" ball at 8'2" puts the bottom at 6'6", the height of the overpass). In 2005, the tetras weight around 15 pounds and were lifted 12-14 feet. That's more weight at a higher elevation. How often did the 2005 robots tip? Certainly they tipped over some, but not THAT often.

This isn't meant as a nitpick, but more to offer some perspective. Tetras weighed eight pounds each, not fifteen. Add in the fact that teams will be moving a lot faster because precision is not as important now as in 2005, and I expect that you'll see even more tipped bots than we did then.

[Faith]

Tipped robots are annoying to everyone, although they may or may not benefit your alliance.

BUT... Unless you are in an elimination match, or a REALLY REALLY intense/close match that you are completely set on trying to win as though it was the finals, if you have the ability to pick up another robot, I would do it.
For starters - more scoring will happen afterwards
- it is a really nice thing to do
- the team will be happy that you saved their robot, 6 weeks of work, from possible destruction, and you will probably make new friends always good to have lots of fun
- what teams out there, scouting around, could possibly overlook a team that helped another team up? It means you aren't in it just for the win, but for the experience. It means you're probably a fun team to work with. It means your robot is pretty awesome, because it has the ability to right an 120lb tipped robot.

[Eric Scheuing]

Finally, an advantage to the walking robot.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Plooshiska

the team will be happy that you saved their robot, 6 weeks of work, from possible destruction

On the other hand, if somebody tried to pick up my robot without asking permission and managed to damage it more in the process, I would expect them to be DQed pursuant to <G37c>. I appreciate the thought and the opportunity to rejoin the match, but you have to expect to catch flak if something goes wrong.

[Andy L]

Honestly reading this post kind of makes me mad not only should you not try to tip a robot because it slows the game but I have a couple of other points

-Rule G42 States basically ramming a hurdling bot is a penalty
-Gracious Proffesionalism??
-and in my opinion one bot falling over there is still 2 others trying to get 2 balls around and 3 on the opposite alliance who can always accidently push the other alliance's balls around

Please tell me that GP is still in FIRST

[MGoelz]

Here's my take on it:

Dean's homework this year is to draw more public attention to FIRST through the media. With (hopefully) more public awareness, more average non-FIRSTers will be coming into competitions and checking us out. I think that even attempting to right a tipped robot will show what this program is really after.

FIRST was not created to be something where all you care about was winning. It's the attractive part, but it isn't necessarily the important part. The important part is to learn skills that we will need or want to use in the future. It is to give us insight on our own capabilities. Personally, when I see a tipped robot successfully put upright, it makes me happy and proud to belong to my team and to FIRST. I won't remember who won or lost that match, but I will remember who fell and who helped pick them back up.

I also do not think a game in which the whole field is blocked would be appealing to the audience. It slows down the game, and makes it a little boring.

A few years from now when you are applying for college or a job, and you mention FIRST, would you rather say you won the Championship and a lot of regionals? Or would you rather say that you gained more experience from this program than anything else and you learned things that are not taught in a classroom? I'm for the latter.

That's just how I see it.

[Travis Hoffman]

So if a tipped robot blocks all passage, and an opponent bumps them gently to pass, does the tipped bot get penalized for failing to yield within six seconds?

Talk about adding insult to injury....

P.S. I do not believe the refs would ever call it this way. The wording of the rules <G38>, <G40>, and <G41> *almost* makes the above situation plausible, though.

[Otaku]

I'll just say to everybody who says "I'll leave them there" one simple thing:

Gracious Professionalism.

Learn it. Love it. Live it. Also remember... Foe one match, Friend another. Helping somebody out might just help you out in the long run, and even if it doesn't, this is FIRST, so we're all winners anyways.

So just help out a fellow FIRSTer if you see 'em tipped.